Topic: DESCENT FOR WiiWare ANNOUNCED

[Kaiaatzl]

Incorporate this community!
An easier way to do it, though, is just make sure Interplay sells it to the right people.  Last I heard Volition has just had Red Faction cancelled -- maybe it's time for them to go back to their roots  .

[SaladBadger]

Ok, I seriously need to be honest for one second. Sorry if this comes off as being overly crude, but:

Do people here honestly think we're capable of doing better than Interplay with Descent IV? Yes, we got musicians. Yes, we got level builders. We have an artist here and there. What we don't have are the coders that would be required to bring the engine up to modern specs. We have a low success rate for big projects using the Descent 3 engine (and honestly, from my own experiences the Descent 3 engine is a mess to work with when compared to other engines of its era)

A modern game has a huge team of people working on it for a reason: They have tons of content they need to generate, and a lot of this content is very complex. Their level design is quite complex (the layouts can leave something to be desired though, meh), and going in with my earlier notion about the Descent 3 engine being a mess to work with, D3Edit would probably be a horrible tool for generating this type of content, at least in my opinion.  They have many many people hammering out constantly at the various needed assets to try to create them in a reasonable timeframe.

At last glance, we have a few musicians here. A few capable level builders (though how much experience they have in more modern environments, I don't know). An artist here and there. People like me who can write a little code, but it isn't very good code. A few great coders, busy with their own projects.

If we're going to try to get anything done with the prospect of getting Descent out of interplay's hands, the best option would be to sell it to a group of developers somewhere. And even then, this implies that they want to give it up and that there's motivation in this group to want to take on a unique style of game.

[Kaiaatzl]

Well I had this idea that we could be doing the negotiations on both sides so that we can make sure that we get something out of it -- and also to make everything easy for Interplay and whoever else.

And just because we're not making the game as a community doesn't mean those of us with the talent (and those of us who just like to play games) won't get to put anything into it.  Especially those of us with some experience in the industry -- off the top of my head there's Kyorryu, Luke (if we can get in contact with him) aand um... well me soon.  And probably a bunch of other guys who I don't know about.

[-<WillyP>-]

On what basis would 'WE' get to be in on the negotiations?

[Alieo]

...the fact that I've got a very vivid vision of what I'd expect from a D4 that I don't think D3's engine could pull off without virtually reworking the whole thing, so starting from scratch actually would sound slightly easier when looked at it from that perspective.

So true! We could totally start from scratch. Just as long as we had the RIGHTS to the Descent name and all the names of the mines, characters, and robots, we could do something COMPLETELY different with it! Maybe create a completely different genre of video game!

We all know about the Super Mario franchise and how it started out as a 2D platform game and grew to other things like, Mario Paint, Mario Kart, Mario Golf, etc. Who says the next installment of Descent would have to be about going into a mine and blowing up the reactor and getting out of time. I'm thinking out of the box here, but remember that story I was beginning to write? Well, I was thinking more along the lines of making a completely different genre. We have all these blown PTMC mines... why not have an installment of Descent that focuses on REBUILDING the mines as deep space commercial venues -- Sim City style! You start of with the CED's already rebuilt-from-damaged site of Lunar Outpost and try to make it a tourist attraction so it makes money.

Okay, then go through the other 25+ mines, blah, blah, blah, and at the end, you have that one mine you couldn't repair throughout the whole game at the old site for Level 7, Mercury Core, because the Superhulk was rebuilding and making a more advanced virus. THAT would be Descent 4.

Then, Descent 5 would be more like the 007 games where MD is a secret agent and you go through these rebuilt mines (which are now hotels, shopping centers, communities, etc.) and MD would have to discern between people and robots you can and can't trust and do various missions.

Or, scratch all that, let the above description for D4 just be either an "extra" game published aside without carrying the D"4" label, and let it be the backstory to the description of D5 as D4... OR combine the two and make it one whole game. The way you rebuild your mines in the above plan for D4 can affect the different gameplay outcomes of the above said description for D5, but this ALL would be one game.

In this next installment of Descent, I see ALL PLATFORMS of gaming to be introduced. You can: walk around freely and interact with characters with built-in A.I. so you can just type what you want to say to the characters rather than select from a menu, go to various venues like movie theaters and watch old clips from the previous Descent series, play old Descent games on THIS game at the arcades, play golf, race Star Wars style in Phoenix Interceptors... just a variety of different genres in ONE game, like a total virtual reality universe, with the BEST A.I. and graphics. It would be like Grand Theft Auto meets Driver meets Star Wars racing meets D1 meets ALL GENRES OF SPORTS GAMES meets Star Trek meets 007 meets... you get the idea.

If I only had the rights, I have the idea, and I'm sure all of you have your own ideas as well to pitch in to WTF the next Descent holds in store for us.

If I only had the damn RIGHTS. "WE" or "I" wouldn't have to MAKE all those ideas. Bottom line is, if one or several of us had the rights to Descent, and we have an idea, and a damn good one at that, all it takes is for ONE development team with the means and resources necessary to BUY those rights from us and cut US a check for the idea, and if it's a huge success, well, then we'd all be a little happier now wouldn't we. I know I dream big, but I can't help it.

[Kaiaatzl]

I have an idea for a D4 story IF it's a remake of D1.  It's like D1 to D3 mashed together and with more of a plot that makes more sense.

[Alieo]

Yeah that's another thing they can do is elaborate on D1's story and bring it back with a whole new modern gaming engine! I like that! THEN focus on D5!

[Scyphi]

I've actually have been putting a lot of thought into a D4, especially in terms of storyline, and think I have something worked out that would please most of the Descent fans, and hopefully interest newbies, so much so that I had thought about writing it all down to show off and see what responses I get.

Basically it's a post D3-story that takes place in the aftermath of what transpired with the PTMC's collapse. Only the matter's still not done, because ever-calculative Dravis had some of his mercenaries lie low when it started to become clear everybody was onto him and faced getting it bad, with the idea that they could take charge and continue his plans assuming something happened to him, which was of course exactly the case, and this is exactly what happens, the mercenaries take charge, especially one in particular (I was thinking the same mercenary from D3: Mercenary, seeing his end fate was never solidified) and have in engaged in a game of cat-and-mouse with the CED as they work to carry out some plan to revive things for them. Meanwhile, Red Acropolis is rebuilding with the CED's help (seeing they caused them most of the damage) and have been given the task of refining their anti-virus to use to wipe out the virus once and for all...only to encounter a strain of the virus that the anti-virus has no effect on, and is spreading...

That's the basic premise at least. More details on demand.

As for gameplay, I've been envisioning a hybrid of all three Descents in terms of appearance with a new "edge" given to it to update it to the times and make it feel new, and has a very destructive environment (aka you shoot at a wall, it takes visible damage). I was also thinking, that since the fanbase didn't seem united behind any one Descent gameplay style, I was thinking of compromising by taking a page from Sonic Adventure and split the story into three, each focusing on a different character and sporting differing gameplay styles. One would sport classic D1-D2 style gameplay, one would sport D3-objective-based gameplay, and the third would feature D3:Merc-stealth-based gameplay. Ships would include everything from the GX to the Black Pyro and then some, and in terms of weaponry, would have everything from all three games and then some as well (but you wouldn't have the ability to use them all on one ship, of course. Again, more details on demand).

[Kaiaatzl]

But I'm already working on a Sonic Adventure clone with Descent references!

Maybe I should write down my story idea (strangely or not so strangely, I think it could co-exist with yours, Scyphi).  After I finish the fiction I'm working on now though.  (And by now I mean immediately, I think everyone here knows there's plenty of other fiction I'm "working on" but won't find the time for for a long time).  But this fiction shouldn't take longer than the end of next week .

To be totally honest I think the sort of mission-based gameplay with distinct levels that D3 had doesn't lend itself well to any kind of serious story.  I really think, if the series is going to go forward then there needs to be a lot more humour -- it's a story that can't really take itself seriously without looking stupid.  I think that's why the books were actually good -- they realized that even though the game stories (especially D3) didn't.

Oh and the Mercenary pilot did have more of a fate in the novels.  He was captured and gassed by aliens, and they took him away for some revenge (he killed a lot of them for Dravis), or so it was implied...

One new thing I think the pyro should definitley be able to do is "mount" large machinery (or large vehicles) and operate or pilot them.  This could also make for some cool bosses (mercenaries piloting a robot?).

Oh, and do you guys think this D4 discussion should be split from the Wiiware thread so that it's easier to find it?
I really have got to stop this habit of thread-derailing.
Did I tell you about the time I derailed a thread about a list of bugs in Trackmania to talking about why the cars had no drivers (they all died of radiation poisoning before the race could start).  All with just one silly statement in an otherwise on-topic post!

[Alieo]

Oh, and do you guys think this D4 discussion should be split from the Wiiware thread so that it's easier to find it?
I really have got to stop this habit of thread-derailing.
Did I tell you about the time I derailed a thread about a list of bugs in Trackmania to talking about why the cars had no drivers (they all died of radiation poisoning before the race could start).  All with just one silly statement in an otherwise on-topic post!

Well if I recall, Karx declared this thread as:
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...and then we started talking about gaming rights and various D4 ideas. Descent for Wiiware is dead. HELL the wii ITSELF is dead! All the cool games are on XBOX or PS3 now, right? Besides, Descent for WiiWare is still going backwards... back to the thoroughly re-redone D1. Let's get D4 off the ground already!

I LOVE those ideas you both have, Kaiaatsel and Scyphi. Now, what I want to know is, how MUCH do rights cost for a dead and unpopular game like Descent? Surely they don't care too much about it if they don't want to do anything with it!

[TechPro]

... Now, what I want to know is, how MUCH do rights cost for a dead and unpopular game like Descent? Surely they don't care too much about it if they don't want to do anything with it!

Sure, they may not actually 'care' about the game anymore, but that's not what determines the value of the code for the game.  What is important to them is how much revenue they would not get should someone manage to produce a profit making product using the game's code after they give it up to someone.

It's about the money they might not get, not what they are not getting right now.

It's backwards, it's stupid, but that's the way corporate bean counters look at it.

[VANGUARD]

I'm in and out of this forum and the topic, so I apologize in saying something that is basically obsolete.

I have no knowledge in level building, making music, designs, art, etc. No idea how the business works, or more specifically, who has rights to the game, etc.


Some here say we should make a D4 game, or something of the sort. Others are saying we don't have the capability, or maybe even the rights to doing that.

My two cents is this, we (may) have a choice.

1. Make a D4-like game. It may not be close to what a real company can do. But hey, something is better than nothing, right?
2. We simply don't make a D4-like game.

I can't do nothing, but maybe give some people ideas. My idea of D4 consists of night vision. I'm not hinting to anyone that option 1 is the option. It may be best to do nothing. I just read that some don't think we can make D4 that great. May be true, but sometimes it's nice to have something.

Frictional Games, not very big at all. But I like some of the games they came out with.

[Matthew]

... Now, what I want to know is, how MUCH do rights cost for a dead and unpopular game like Descent? Surely they don't care too much about it if they don't want to do anything with it!

Sure, they may not actually 'care' about the game anymore, but that's not what determines the value of the code for the game.  What is important to them is how much revenue they would not get should someone manage to produce a profit making product using the game's code after they give it up to someone.

It's about the money they might not get, not what they are not getting right now.

It's backwards, it's stupid, but that's the way corporate bean counters look at it.

Sign a profit-sharing contract? It wouldn't be unheard of, to be sure. Instead of paying money up front, pay a portion of any profits made. It's a popular sales model.

I have all the microsoft products game developers use... But I have almost no coding knowledge, and absolutely no knowledge of game engines, graphics, etc. Microsoft products are good and helpful, but not THAT helpful.

[Scyphi]

But I'm already working on a Sonic Adventure clone with Descent references!

And you're welcome to it. I only borrowed the multi-character storyarcs aspect. The rest is still 100% Descent, so it's more of Descent with a Sonic Adventure reference.

To be totally honest I think the sort of mission-based gameplay with distinct levels that D3 had doesn't lend itself well to any kind of serious story.

Exactly why I opted to try and accommodate all three, because I know there are people out there who would disagree with you. With my idea, that way nobody's excluded and there's something for everybody.

I really think, if the series is going to go forward then there needs to be a lot more humour -- it's a story that can't really take itself seriously without looking stupid.

On this I disagree. I like humor as much as the next guy, but I always thought the Descent series as very serious. If it's falling short of that, then adding more humor to it wouldn't necessarily help it any at all, and possibly make it worse. It of course depends on how much humor you use. The fact it's scientifically unsound in areas doesn't really make that big a difference either simply because it's a video game, and if there's one thing I've noticed about video games, being scientifically sound is very much optional, and is frequently "fudged" for the sake of making the game more fun to play.

Oh and the Mercenary pilot did have more of a fate in the novels.  He was captured and gassed by aliens, and they took him away for some revenge (he killed a lot of them for Dravis), or so it was implied...

Yes, but that's the novels, which are only based on the game, and are thus whether or not they can be considered canonical is highly debatable. Seeing that not every Descent fan has probably read said novels (I certainly haven't) it probably wouldn't be too good an idea to base a D4 too much around it's mythos anyway. Taking inspiration from it isn't a bad idea, but in terms of continuity, it would probably best to stick with what story the games provide. Besides, my idea sticks mostly with the tale as told by the games anyway.

At any rate, I suggested the Mercenary pilot simply because his end fate, according to the games at least, is very nebulous. Some have argued that he was probably one of the mercenaries in Dravis's sanctuary, but there was also more than one in there, so what if it wasn't? I mean, we don't really know anything about what happens to him after level four of D3. Furthermore, seeing that Dravis apparently had a small army of these mercenaries, how do we know we really got them all anyway? I just suggested the Mercenary pilot so to also take the chance to wrap up his storyarc better, to give it some closure, but it doesn't have to be him. Could easily be an entirely new character filling in the role.

One new thing I think the pyro should definitley be able to do is "mount" large machinery (or large vehicles) and operate or pilot them.  This could also make for some cool bosses (mercenaries piloting a robot?).

I like the idea, but I can also immediately see the Sonic inspiration from that, so finding some way to shake it up and make it different would probably be a good idea.

Oh, and do you guys think this D4 discussion should be split from the Wiiware thread so that it's easier to find it?
I really have got to stop this habit of thread-derailing.

Hey, this is PD, ALL threads get derailed sooner or later, especially the longer they last. And it's not like this particular thread hasn't gotten derailed before already anyway.

[VANGUARD]

it feels like last year, Descent was 3rd or so from the top in the developing list. It is still getting bumped. Games above it gets released, and Descent is still number 3 (or 4).