Topic: DESCENT FOR WiiWare ANNOUNCED

[Scyphi]

Well, it's not just the hi-def, but the original Wii always was a little backwards in terms of graphics. Both the PS3 and the Xbox 360, as I understand it, both out-preformed the Wii in that department. I suspect that it was the fact that the Wii's revolutionary motion-sensing capabilities was what has redeemed it for this long. But now that the Wii's competitors have also adopted motion-sensing capabilities that reportedly go above and beyond the Wii's, it's losing it's charm now.

That's just a guess, though.

[Crash]

Well they started selling Goldeneye for the Wii and apparently the framerates collapse under the extreme weight of the 'insane', 'staggering' computer-time requirements of this ... 10-year-old plus (?) ancient, original Playstation title.
Apparently the system nearly ground to a halt anytime a few people were in a room shooting at you. That was according to some review show on Freesat a while back.
Not a very convincing performance then although they had made some steps to improve the original Goldeneye graphics slightly but it still looked very ropey to me, TBH.

Maybe it just wasn't a very good port but how bad a port would it have to be to make such an ancient game not work on a modern console?

[Foil]

The original GoldenEye was a Nintendo-64 game, as I recall.  I remember the framerates getting pretty bad on that console during heavy action (especially when playing with 4 players), too.

[Crash]

Ahh, yes N64, sorry. Even so, same sort of time. I even remember playing it once with that very cool trimaran controller thing it had.
I've never been much into consoles.

I got the impression that these reviewers were playing it on single.

[Matthew]

I mean, the 1080p HDTV is the only TV resolution sold above 32" nowadays and people see that and think - "Well, do I want a console whose resolution's was only designed to feed a 32" CRT feeding my 46" LCD behemoth?" So I think you're absolutely right.

I'm sorry, what? I don't see how that's nintendo's fault or even relevant.

[Crash]

I mean, the 1080p HDTV is the only TV resolution sold above 32" nowadays and people see that and think - "Well, do I want a console whose resolution was only designed to feed a 32" CRT feeding my 46" LCD behemoth?" So I think you're absolutely right.

I'm sorry, what? I don't see how that's nintendo's fault or even relevant.

Fine - I'm not gonna get heated over it but I do wonder if you could use a lesson in manners.
It's nothing to do with Nintendo how manufacturers make their TVs. I don't remember saying it was.
You don't think that it has an impact on their sales? - No problem.
I'd forgotten how we'd all taken a vote and made you the moderator of the forum.

[karx-elf-erx]

Though you have to bear in mind that even the PS3 only packs the equivalent of a single 8800GTS/X, and the X-Box 360 ~ a 7900GTX. They do a fair bit with not a great deal quite honestly

You need to know that game consoles (at least after they've been around for a while) are programmed "to the metal", i.e. by circumvention of vendor or manufacturer supplied drivers, directly programming the hardware on assembly level so to speak. You can squeeze a tenfold performance increase out of the hardware that way, so I have been told. Since a game console's hardware consists of a single set of components that do not change and only have one well defined interface, programming them that way is a feasible and proven approach.

[Crash]

Well they have no API layer to work 'against' with the consoles. DirectX, Windows and every other abstraction layer effectively rob even the strongest PC of a fair bit of its power. You're absolutely right.
It's just a practical demonstration that the special purpose computer wins over the general purpose one every time in that specific area - (especially when you factor in performance combined with cost).
The PS3 is only £215 now. What kind of PC could you build for that money with new components?

I'm just saying that if you ever wonder why the consoles don't often give you 1080p on your 1080p TV, it's because the hardware is fair but ... generations old from the desktop perspective.
I haven't compared the benchmarks to find out but I would think that if you took a desktop 8800GTX and a 580GTX, you would probably see a good 100% performance gain, easily.

I'm not entirely convinced though that the gains of console hardware design are anywhere near as pronounced as 10-fold. I just can't see it. If you have a single radeon 5870 (which is pretty mainstream, probably only about twice the PS3's 8800GTX equivalent), you should be able to play anything at whatever settings you wanted at 1080p; far beyond what a console can output.

I saw an absolutely crazy article which I suspect was quoting much the same figures as you've seen. It said "The desktop is 10x as powerful as the console" (yeah right - if it were a brand-new 580GTX SLI killer desktop you might be talking about 4x to 5x). "So why aren't PC graphics 10x better"?
Well if you had that powerful a machine, you would be talking about 4x as much power but graphics-wise you'd be seeing an (admittedly qualitative) 2-3x improvement in terms of how much FSAA, Anisotropy etc etc you could leverage.
- Still a fair margin but nowhere as big as some people seem to think.

I was reading interviews with Carmack and one of ATI's lead techs and they were saying that they were nowhere near plumming the depths of the XBox 360 capability. With the PS2 they basically reached the point where they said "We've nowhere left to go with this. Any further exploration is only gonna get us very minor gains".
I think with the 360, it's so complex and well-designed too that they'll be milking worthwhile performance tricks out of it for ages.
You've gotta remember though that Carmack is at the top of his industry. He got that desktop-quality FPS running on the iPhone and so-on.
I'm not sure it's fair to expect programmers to engage in that level of magic just to create a good game.
You're effectively going to be squeezing developers out of the market if you're forcing them to engage in 'ultra black magic' and hacks to get their games to work on 2005 hardware as far away as 2015.
That doesn't strike me as good for gaming.

[Matthew]

I mean, the 1080p HDTV is the only TV resolution sold above 32" nowadays and people see that and think - "Well, do I want a console whose resolution was only designed to feed a 32" CRT feeding my 46" LCD behemoth?" So I think you're absolutely right.

I'm sorry, what? I don't see how that's nintendo's fault or even relevant.

Fine - I'm not gonna get heated over it but I do wonder if you could use a lesson in manners.
It's nothing to do with Nintendo how manufacturers make their TVs. I don't remember saying it was.
You don't think that it has an impact on their sales? - No problem.
I'd forgotten how we'd all taken a vote and made you the moderator of the forum.

So now I'm not allowed to participate in a discussion? I must've missed that vote as well. I certainly don't see how it impacts their sales in comparison to the XBox or PS3, considering that they all face the same limitation. If you care to elaborate, I'm all ears.

[Scyphi]

I'd intervene in this imminent argument if I knew what you were all talking about. This subject has officially gone way over my head.

IHateHackers, you probably didn't mean to cause any trouble, but your original comment was sounding harsh and rude. You have a knack for commenting seemingly carelessly, insensitively, and harshly, and it's obviously been causing trouble. If you want to avoid arguments you don't want to get caught up in, this is something you're going to have to work on.

This doesn't mean we don't want you here, though. Everybody's welcome at PD so long as they adhere to the rules and don't purposely go looking for a fight.

[Crash]

XBox and PS3 can output in 720p high-definition or 1080p high-definition (normally the former). The Wii can do neither, as far as I'm aware.
So the limitation is not global across the three consoles.
I don't think the Wii even has an HDMI cable, which is kind of a pre-requisite for outputting a high-definition signal.

I'm not trying to push anyone out - It's just that what you said came as quite a ... surprise.

The problem is, from my experience, (and I'm talking about other people here, not you) that whenever you get into an argument with someone and you win it, their first bitter resort is to claim that what your saying has no relevance anyway. I just have a slightly adverse kneejerk reaction to that kind of thing.
And it hasn't any relevance to the thread, I suppose. I mean we are talking about Descent here not ... which console have which advantages.

[Alieo]

I'd intervene in this imminent argument if I knew what you were all talking about. This subject has officially gone way over my head.

IHateHackers, you probably didn't mean to cause any trouble, but your original comment was sounding harsh and rude. You have a knack for commenting seemingly carelessly, insensitively, and harshly, and it's obviously been causing trouble. If you want to avoid arguments you don't want to get caught up in, this is something you're going to have to work on.

This doesn't mean we don't want you here, though. Everybody's welcome at PD so long as they adhere to the rules and don't purposely go looking for a fight.

I just wanted to say for the sake of argument on both sides of this, that in the past, I would say a lot of things without intending to hurt anyone, but then I'd end up hurting someone's feelings and just totally be bewildered as to what was wrong with me? "Bah! Those sensitive pricks! I'll say what I want!" I still do it every now and then, but not as common as I used to. I used to be real high strung, say, 10 years ago, than how I am today, and would lash out more. I have found that the less stress free I was, the less high strung I was, the less I unintentionally pissed people off.

IHateHackers, I feel for you. You're probably going to be like, "WTH??? Someone ELSE getting pissed off with what I said?" Just let it slide, laugh about it, and move on. I harbored a LOT of these resentful feelings afterwards, but what really straightened me out was I moved in with my ex-girlfriend and she had 2 kids of her own. I lived with her for 20 months and had to learn EXTREME patience. At times, we got along, but other times, it was like living with the hounds of hell. I finally couldn't take it anymore, broke up with her, moved back home with my parents, and NOW, I am an expert at handling stress. Sure it still gets to me at times, but I let it slide off easier than before and I'm not as high strung.

[karx-elf-erx]

I have to say that I did not perceive IHateHackers above comment as offensive or provocative.

Problem is that he has built a certain reputation here already and so perception of his statements is easily influenced by that. I do however think that posts should be read as they are, and not with a negative expectation already lingering in the background.

[Crash]

I think I still lack a thick skin. After all the corruption and BS and lies I've tripped on in life it hasn't toughened one bit. You just become more bitter and disillusioned on the inside.
Whenever I see a message starting "I'm sorry, what?" or when people take a very direct approach, that unfortunately puts my point defences on alert.
It is the product of unfortunate experience of having to defend your reputation to the last.

[Matthew]

Speaking of defending reputations... Can we get back to the topic at hand, and please explain what you're trying to get at with 1080p and the Wii U, because I honestly don't see where you're going with it.