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Author Topic: But was it cheating?  (Read 8624 times)

Offline Foil

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 10:12:46 AM »
Maybe slightly off-topic, but NZ, I have to strongly disagree with you here:

In my book, i say that "if we can both do it, it is not cheating (unless it's something really low)."

I've heard that same rationale used to say that it's okay to do things like tweak a tablefile to remove weapon recoil, or change ship models to see things in the dark, or tweak network settings to make oneself skippy, or other "little" things. 
"After all, the models / tablefile tools / network tools are freely available, so anyone can do it."

I don't think that's what you're saying, but that rationale can be misused.

A much better definition to use for multiplayer is: If it's a game setting (e.g. command-line options, in-game options) it's fine.  Otherwise (e.g. file changes, outside tools, etc.), you're doing something to change the design of the game.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 10:14:50 AM by Foil »

Offline NUMBERZero

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 11:36:22 AM »
"I hate not being able to move in three dimensions. Cramps my style." -Cpt. Jack "Heartbreak One" Bartlett (Ace Combat 5)

Offline Foil

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 12:36:40 PM »
I know you made the cavéat, NZ.  But it still doesn't make it a good rationale.  Mere mutual ability ("everyone can do it") just isn't a good measuring-stick for determining if something is okay, simply because it doesn't take into account whether or not something is outside the design of the game.

In other words, it allows people to say, "Well, everyone can do it", when it's something clearly in the realm of cheating (e.g. my examples above).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 12:40:01 PM by Foil »

Offline -<WillyP>-

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 01:27:02 PM »
Sure, I could... (and I am sure some have and maybe some do)  Yet there is no written rule that says i can't do that. Unwritten rules are just as important as the written ones, but the problem is not everybody defines them the same.

We all understand the basic rules of the game well enough, but the baby monitor incident is unusual enough it requires a little thought, and (apparently  ;) ) some discussion to really understand it fully.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 01:33:45 PM by WillyP »
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Offline PyroJockey

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2009, 08:11:10 AM »
If it's a game setting (e.g. command-line options, in-game options) it's fine.  Otherwise (e.g. file changes, outside tools, etc.), you're doing something to change the design of the game.

Good point. I did modify my install of Descent beyond that which was intended by the game designers. This practice could be extended by replacing subtle  sounds made by opponents with louder more obvious and easily detectable sounds, which I definitely would consider cheating. Likewise one could also replace the dull gray ship textures with bright festive colors so opponents stand out against the darker backgrounds. (Not my style).

In this case I only modified the sounds that my Pyro generated and would under “normal” circumstances only be heard by me. I could have achieved the same effect by playing back the desired sounds via a cassette player (no MP3’s back then) or maybe set-up a soundboard, but remapping the keys was more convenient.

I did neglect to mention how my wife clued me in to the little eavesdropper. He took the receiver with him back to the family PC, which seemed sweet to her that he would care so much for his little sister.  ::)

« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 08:27:20 AM by PyroJockey »
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Offline Foil

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2009, 08:45:56 AM »
I should clarify: I wasn't talking about your story, PyroJockey.  As far as I'm concerned, you were simply teaching your son a lesson about playing honorably.  :D  I wouldn't think for a minute that listening in or changing sounds is something you've rationalized as 'normal'.

I was just responding to NZ's definition, because I've heard people use it. I remember one particular instance at a LAN,  where a guy was caught with weapon and model alterations, and tried to defend himself by saying "anyone can do it".


Offline D2Disciple

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 06:39:06 PM »
I agree with Foil and see his point, but in context I think I better understand NZ. Of course, this begs the question then: anyone can do it, so does that make using Mouselook right? Questions like that are particularly pertinent to your rationale.  ;)

And to follow up with WillyP's comments, unwritten rules are not often well-clarified, and others are arbitrarily made. I think of one in particular related to Halo 2 (when I very occasionally play it). Most everyone considers it one of the best groundpounders ever made (whatever  :P), but when you get online, you get banned or booted or just plain hated for using a "noob combo" such as the Battle Rifle and the Plasma Pistol (which together is downright brutal). How "do not use this weapon combo" became an unwritten rule to me is completely unclear - the player should not be responsible for such a flagrant unbalance of weapon power. Yet this is a rule arbitrarily made for those that think it's more honorable to win with a weaker weapon, for whatever reason. I see the same thing in Descent games in areas such as typekilling - just state whether it's legal or illegal and go with it. If you want to complain about getting killed while typing, well - don't type.  ;)
I, for one, hope this is much, much more than a reconnaissance mission.

Offline -<WillyP>-

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2009, 04:02:26 PM »
Type-killing is not illegal... as far as the game itself goes. Some Sys-Ops have made it a house rule and will ban you, usually after a few warnings. Most people consider it 'bad form', which is a whole 'nother matter!
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Offline NUMBERZero

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 07:11:26 PM »
I hate how people just keep typing. Eventually they type so often I won't even care if they are or not. Another thing that ticks me off is when I start to type, someone immediately comes around the corner, I smoke them or they sucessfully disengage and say "you were typing!" Excuse me for being jumpy when someone starts shooting at me. It may be decieving, but I'm under attack! Final pet peeve is when I'm running someone down (*cough cough* The Best *cough*) and I demolish them and then they say type kill. Fortunately my truthful reputation and his idiocy works in my favor of my argument against that. Even got it on youtube. He now changed his name to The Worst. :)
"I hate not being able to move in three dimensions. Cramps my style." -Cpt. Jack "Heartbreak One" Bartlett (Ace Combat 5)

Offline D2Disciple

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2009, 09:37:51 PM »
... Let's try to avoid directly referencing those players that you more or less dislike.
I, for one, hope this is much, much more than a reconnaissance mission.

Offline -<WillyP>-

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2009, 12:45:02 PM »
However, there is certainly an exception to 'no type-killing' for anyone who abuses the privilege! If someone is using typing to avoid a fight, I say, 'fair game'! Or someone who thinks they are in a chat-room! Fair Game, suckas!
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Offline S13driftAZ

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2009, 01:12:35 PM »
Its using your surroundings to your advantage ;)

Offline -<WillyP>-

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Re: But was it cheating?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2009, 06:07:27 AM »
I agree, kinda

For playing at home it was kinda clever.* I think I woulda done it once, then said 'hey look at this... I'm spying on you with a baby monitor! lol!' and we could'a had a good laugh.

*Of course, PJ's countermeasures were even more clever, kudos for that. ;)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 06:10:00 AM by WillyP »
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