Planet Descent
From the Front Page => Soupe Du Jour => Topic started by: TechPro on January 16, 2012, 11:56:33 AM
-
Right now, for me, it's 12:45 PM and "Martin Luther King day" (http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/martin-luther-king-day) (also known as "Civil Rights Day" (http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/civil-rights-day)) is half over.
As I consider this world we live in, and the many peoples therein, I am disheartened to know the different nationalities and peoples who do not get along together. The wars and strife, people against people, nation against nation. It's such a waste.
I could toss up my arms and say "I'm only one person. I, alone, cannot change this." and I'd be right. However, if all of us were to set aside the differences and accept others (regardless of race, creed, religion, color, etc.) then we together can make a difference.
Sure, it's not that easy, but it has to start somewhere and if you're not already trying to do that, then shame on you. Yes, there will probably always be those you will try to take advantage or insist on fighting, and there are those who believe the fighting and conflict is their religious duty because others do not believe as they do or are not of the same ancestry.
Change for the better has to start somewhere. I hope that all of us try to help change the world for the better.
-
You could start in your own country, where liberals and conservatives maul each other with utter disregard of the good of your nation, willing to sacrifice it on the altar of selfish ideology.
If you have managed to get your country going again instead of driving it against the wall, we'll talk again. ;)
No need for referring me to the "Euro crisis" - that's something we owe a form of reckless and darwinistic capitalism conceived and hailed in the U.S. of A. with the only goal to make the most profit out of the life of millions without any qualms.
-
You could start in your own country, where liberals and conservatives maul each other with utter disregard of the good of your nation, willing to sacrifice it on the altar of selfish ideology.
If you have managed to get your country going again instead of driving it against the wall, we'll talk again. ;)
No need for referring me to the "Euro crisis" - that's something we owe a form of reckless and darwinistic capitalism conceived and hailed in the U.S. of A. with the only goal to make the most profit out of the life of millions without any qualms.
For people who bash the USA, you're not at all dissimilar. "It's not our problem, you started it!"
-
....
For people who bash the USA, you're not at all dissimilar. "It's not our problem, you started it!"
I think TechPro was trying to say that we ALL can make a difference (including you, Karx), starting with setting aside preconceived opinion/perceptions and doing stuff to help others.
TechPro is trying to make a difference, are the rest of us?
-
MLK? In other words, I should stop checking the mailbox?
-
MLK? In other words, I should stop checking the mailbox?
Ahhh... huh? ???
Acronyms of MLK (http://www.acronymfinder.com/MLK.html)
-
MLK? In other words, I should stop checking the mailbox?
Uh... Anthrax?
-
I kept checking for the mail. I guess it being MLK day, there is no mail
-
....
For people who bash the USA, you're not at all dissimilar. "It's not our problem, you started it!"
I think TechPro was trying to say that we ALL can make a difference (including you, Karx), starting with setting aside preconceived opinion/perceptions and doing stuff to help others.
TechPro is trying to make a difference, are the rest of us?
Bash? I simply pointed out the obvious. You U.S.-aireans might be able to do something about it if you'd finally acknowledge it.
It is one thing to put aside "preconceived opinions", and another thing to look at facts and judge them realistically. Your country has declined in a horribly way since the beginning of the (younger) Bush administration, and many Americans seem to close their eyes and pretend everything is alright instead of looking at the obvious and starting to do something about it.
It is also very convenient to brush every criticism off as bashing instead of understanding the deep concern many Europeans have about the development of the U.S.A. You can bet your ass us Europeans prefer a strong U.S.A. over a Chinese or Russian world supremacy.
Sad thing is that you Americans mistake every input into your situation as an attack. Your concept of a friend has more to do with a servant who has to silently follow your orders and not comment on any mistakes you are making than with a friend whos input will be properly heard and evaluated.
I have given up believing there was a cure to that though.
Btw, appeals like Techpro's are a big waste of time imo. I don't believe in the good inside people. I only believe in the good God can put into (or rather: be inside) people.
Finally, I couldn't care less about your comment regarding my attitude. Not withstanding my sticking to my beliefs and opinions, I have always been exceptionally constructive and reconciling - in the Descent community or outside.
-
Btw, appeals like Techpro's are a big waste of time imo. I don't believe in the good inside people. I only believe in the good God can put into (or rather: be inside) people.
I didn't know you believed in that.
-
Not sure what it looks like over there Karx, but over here I don't know anybody who doesn't think something's terribly wrong.
-
Massive unemployment?
Thousands and thousands who have lost everything due to the real estate bubble having blown up?
Biggest public debt ever in the history of the U.S.A. - to the brink of bankruptcy?
Massive dependency of U.S. finances on Chinese money?
The U.S. of A. losing their ability for dual military strikes (i.e. sustaining two different war theaters)?
Constitutional rights being undermined (patriot act)?
What else does it take to open your eyes?
A huge asteroid erasing New York?
Tsk.
Dude, your response seems rather unqualified to me.
-
As much as I hate to admit it, Karx is right. The USA is in a bad place, and it seems most of us Americans don't seem to understand the gravity of the situation, especially the politicians, who are, as Karx said, ripping each other apart in a mad attempt to grab power and not much more. I dare say some are using our current problems as leverage to get what they want, and that's not a good thing. Furthermore, I've been following the campaigns for the next presidential election, and I have to say that even if I'm wrong about those pesky politicians, we're still not better off, and I have little confidence in everybody that's running thus far. They all seem to think the situation is a little matter that can be quickly fixed with one quick-fix solution, but there IS no quick-fix solution, and until they realize that, I'm greatly afraid that things are just going to get worse before they get better. These are problems America has been trying to ignore for a couple of decades at the very lest now, much farther back that Bush Jr. actually, and we've let them get so bad they're on the verge of being out of control, if they aren't already. And yet we still have the gall to underplay the seriousness of the issue.
Karx is right to be worried. If this keeps up, I honestly have a hard time seeing America holding together.
And if we fall, who do you think is going to take our place? No offense to the Europeans, but I don't think they're in a position to do it at the moment.
However, that said, Techpro is right too, and that the only way we're going to fix this is by learning to work together, and I think that's part of the reason we even have MLK day anyway, because that's what MLK was working to do, and I daresay he was having huge successes there, so yes, it's more than possible. The moment we think it's not possible is when we lose the battle altogether. It's not an "every-man-for-himself" situation now, never was, and never will be.
That's my two-bits on the matter, I won't repeat myself, so take it or leave it.
Finally, I couldn't care less about your comment regarding my attitude.
This I already know, as you've made this quite clear in the past.
-
Btw, appeals like Techpro's are a big waste of time imo. I don't believe in the good inside people. I only believe in the good God can put into (or rather: be inside) people.
Cynic :P.
But, from what I've seen, you're right; I've never seen an appeal like this working to do anything apart from attracting people who would have helped anyway. Even though my belief is different :P.
-
Scyphi,
Europe? Probably not. Rather China.
Kaiaatsel,
cynic? No way. Realistic. And I have offered an alternative. The only one, imvho.
-
I kept checking for the mail. I guess it being MLK day, there is no mail
Do-h! Guess I didn't catch that. Right you are.
-
cynic? No way. Realistic.
Cliche!
I could have bet money on you saying that if there was anyone to bet with :(.
Seriously I don't think anyone is realistic. We all just think we are.
-
I think that at the age of 50 I have seen a bit more than you. Blissful ignorance is a privilege of youth.
-
But once you're a certain age, you can't really be wise beyond your years anymore.
If you say something that sounds wise when you're 20, you impress a lot more people than if you're 70.
My point is ... umm ... I guess it isn't.
-
You should really stop your big talking, cheap interpretations and stereotype use of words you haven't really understood (like "cynic").
Cynical has something to do with being negative without seeing or offering an alternative, which I did not.
-
Oh fine... you could let me win the debate sometimes you know :P. But I know when I'm beaten. One of these days I won't be.
I'll need a dictionary though... :goes off to the bookstore:
And yeah I was teasing you. In case you couldn't tell, you weren't supposed to take it seriously.
-
Cynical has something to do with being negative without seeing or offering an alternative, which I did not.
Saying "Somebody should so something" is hardly offering an alternative.
-
You should really stop your big talking, cheap interpretations and stereotype use of words you haven't really understood (like "cynic").
Cynical has something to do with being negative without seeing or offering an alternative, which I did not.
Nope, sorry. That is not the right answer. Being "Cynical" has absolutely nothing to do with showing (or not showing) an alternative. Look up 'cynical' (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cynical)
Instead, 'cynical' is simply an state of attitude. IMO someone who is cynical usually tends to have a somewhat negative attitude and also usually claims that they are not being cynical or negative but is instead being something else altogether. Cynical persons hardly ever admit to being that way because they usually don't realize that they are.
TechPro suggested we all try to see how each of us (all of us individually) could contribute to making things better. Karx suggested TechPro should do that himself (as if TechPro didn't already know that and might already be doing that) and the way Karx said it seemed to imply that he (Karx) doesn't have to or need to. Karx didn't say that, but his replies suggest that, and that kind of suggestion is often understood by others as being kind of arrogant, even though Karx may not be arrogant at all.
Is Karx cynical? A realist? Arrogant? Does it matter? -- Probably not.
Perhaps he really is trying to state the reality. I say none of us (including those not in the U.S.) have to put up with the "reality" and can instead work to change that "reality" to a better place.
-
So you believe that from my saying "there is no good in people" (@ IHateHackers: which I continued stating that only God can put that, or rather be that, inside people - there you have your alternative. @DarkWing: I actually suggested nothing of what you claim there; see subtle "irony", below) you can tell that I am a cynic? Btw, I disagree with the definition of cynical linked to. A cynic doesn't believe there is anything good. I should probably have written "without seeing a *positive* alternative".
God must be a hell of a cynic then, because that is what he states in his word (in which I believe).
I see that you are having as much of a problem understanding this term as you have distinguishing between irony and sarcasm.
This is thoughtless to the extent of being moronic. Nobody who really knows me would even dream of saying something that stupid about me.
I should stop arguing with half-baked wiseguys who believe they know it all (the kind of hybris that is another hallmark of youth).
-
A cynic doesn't believe there is anything good.
This is not true at all. A cynical person is usually mistrusting of others motives, but it doesn't mean he/she won't see the good when it is shown, it is just they don't expect to see the good, and often confuse the good as bad. Even the most cynical person will occasionally say, 'well i guess there was some good in him after all'. A cynical person on the receiving end of random acts of kindness will wonder what it will cost him later. An example, I once went to the store and bought groceries, and my debit card wouldn't work for some reason, the next person in line paid for my groceries. A cynical person might envision all sorts of motivation scenarios, perhaps that random stranger is trying to pick me up or will try to scam me later, or maybe his check will bounce and he'll sue me. But in the end I mailed him a check with a nice thank-you note and that was the end of it. Even the most cynical person would think 'hmph! well I guess there are one or two good people left in the world' because a cynical person generally does not believe there is no good in the world, it just takes more convincing than most people.
-
There is at least quite some room for interpretation here. A cynic assumes a general tendency of negativity - not withstanding occasional contradictory experiences. These are rather anomalies in the general stream of failure and decline. A cynic doesn't really expect any good to happen, and if it does, it is only a fleeting occurence. For me cynism also has a notion of contempt.
-
Simply stating an alternative way in which good would exist in people is not exactly my idea of an alternative, because just "being good" doesn't change anything.
-
Everyone reread the second paragraph of the original post.
Karx, read what your response was.
How could you not expect to start a flame war when you are touching on a lot of people's home land and using negative words? It generates negative attitudes.
"maul each other/utter disregard of the good of your nation/willing to sacrifice it/driving it against the wall/reckless"
All negative words and images at face value.
And this is keeping it simple.
-
Karx, thank you for agreeing with me. I knew there was some good in you. ;) In spite of your very cynical outlook.
As far as the problems with the US, Karx is an outsider who hasn't a clue about American politics. So forgive him for seeing it the way he does, he just doesn't understand the freedom we take for granted.
-
Mm, you have a point, WillyP, but as already said before, Karx isn't exaggerating as much as we'd all like to believe. Things are getting to be just about as bad as he says.
And as a reminder to everyone, I am 100% American, so this isn't some outsider looking in and saying what he thinks he sees.
I will state that Karx could work on his...tactics, for bringing up this issue and his continued show of support for it, but given how I know Karx's usual style of arguing typically goes, he's doing a better-than-usual job at it. So credit where credit's due.
But we have gotten terribly off-topic here, no longer even in the same ballpark that Techpro originally set out (which is why I suspect he has been oddly absent from the discussion) and so I say, if we can't get back to the topic, we either need to put an end to this thread, or move the conversation elsewhere.
Though personally, I can only take so much of this flaming, so I vote for the former.
-
Mm, you have a point, WillyP, but as already said before, Karx isn't exaggerating as much as we'd all like to believe. Things are getting to be just about as bad as he says.
Again, I don't know about where you live, but everybody here constantly moans about how bad it is. We are anything but blind.
-
The REAL problem here in America is that we let rogue politicians run away with the law!
Most people have this mentality that their vote doesn't count, so they don't vote. Others are brainwashed by the government psychologically-controlled liberal media into believing so-and-so is THE candidate to vote for. That's how these senators and congressmen get into office and run our country amok with the ridiculous laws and regulations. Government is getting bigger and bigger and we have GOT to take a stand! I don't want to learn Cantonese, DAMMIT!!! >:(
-
Mm, you have a point, WillyP, but as already said before, Karx isn't exaggerating as much as we'd all like to believe. Things are getting to be just about as bad as he says.
Oh, heck no. What country do you live in?
-
Hey, don't bash liberals in front of me. At least, not without a reason ("government controlled liberal media" doesn't count). Don't turn into Stephen Harper.
Respect other political philosophies even if you oppose them. Otherwise you're as bad as the philosophies you hate.
Yeah I'm sorry if I sound harsh but that's one of the things I hate about some politicians.
Should I tell you my voting philosophy?
-
There's a simple solution to all this of course. Set the pay for both houses of congress at 60K a year. That will get rid of the politicians and bring about actual leaders who actually know what they're there for. There was a time, a very long time ago, when being in congress was an honor, not a source of income to be grappled for by any means necessary.
-
Again, I don't know about where you live, but everybody here constantly moans about how bad it is. We are anything but blind.
Okay, you all moan and gripe, sure, but nobody actually DOES anything about it. Alieo summed it up the best:
The REAL problem here in America is that we let rogue politicians run away with the law!
See, the issue isn't so much that Americans are unaware, it's that they are more than aware, but seem more inclined to just try and ignore the issue, hoping it'll go away on it's own. I'm even guilty of this, especially since I hate getting too involved in politics, but the point of the matter that ignoring a problem isn't going to make it go away. That's partly how America has gotten into it's economic trouble in the first place. We ignored it until it got so worse to the point it's threatening to do us in, financially.
Most people have this mentality that their vote doesn't count, so they don't vote.
Not necessarily. If they're like me, they could be of the opinion that they don't like anyone (or anything) that's up for a vote so they feel that no matter how they vote, they still lose, and thereby don't bother. This is how I'm feeling with the present election candidates at the moment. Don't really like any of them, and so if that persists, I might just not vote because for me it wouldn't matter who I'd vote for, I wouldn't like who I'd eventually end up with.
Oh, heck no. What country do you live in?
I live in Idaho, which, last I checked, is a part of America, is it not?
Yeah I'm sorry if I sound harsh but that's one of the things I hate about some politicians.
You're not alone. This is one of the reasons why I don't like all of the candidates at the moment, because they're spending more time bashing each other than actually trying to come up with plans to fix things, or even, for that matter, really convincing us, the citizens, that they can fix things at all. At least, if they are, they haven't been exactly winning my heart over the matter, but that's another topic.
Set the pay for both houses of congress at 60K a year. That will get rid of the politicians and bring about actual leaders who actually know what they're there for. There was a time, a very long time ago, when being in congress was an honor, not a source of income to be grappled for by any means necessary.
You're forgetting, though, that it's not just the money they're after, it's the power. America may still be a democratic government, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have positions of power that people greedily want to have.
But I will concede that cutting the politican's paycheck probably would be a good place to start, if only to get back at them for all the stupid things they do. :P
-
So what do you suggest doing? If there's nobody good to vote for, voting is ineffective as you stated. What do you want me to do, run for president? Politicians have already shown they're good at ignoring the people.
-
Oh, heck no. What country do you live in?
I live in Idaho, which, last I checked, is a part of America, is it not?
I would certainly hope so. But you seem to be very pessimistic in your views, of the US of A, and US politics in particular. Some of what Karx says is true, but doesn't apply in general. And if you really want to see how not to have a country, look around outside the US, point being, the US, overall is still the best. Yes we have some problems, yes the economy sucks, yes the national debt is an outrage. But nearly every country in the whole world has far worse problems. Anyway, my point was more directed at Karx's comment something to the effect of the candidates fighting each other. And that comment shows that he does not have the kind of understanding of how it is done here that can only be gained from having been born and raised here. Our election process is a battle, to determine who will lead, we need to see the best and worst of each candidate. We elect a President not just based on promises and positions, but character, personality and presence are important considerations also.
We need to balance the federal budget, and enact laws that would keep it balanced. We need to stop supporting foreign governments. We need to have a clear foreign policy that sets strict limits on our military activity abroad. We need to cut the federal governments size and scope down to a reasonable, manageable size, reducing it's authority to that given it in the constitution, and return the authority for everything else back to the states where it belongs. We need to abolish the IRS and eliminate income taxes altogether. There is only one candidate who would work toward these changes, and that is Ron Paul.
I don't know who you hang with but all... ok, most ;) ... of my friends and relatives are very involved and active in pursuing whatever political visions they might have. My sister, for example, much as I love her, is a *gasp* liberal. Make that Liberal with a capitol L. We discuss issues frequently and often have 'wars' on Facebook. We both support our positions actively, and fight 'tooth and nail' so to speak. But every visit begins and ends with a hug and a kiss, its all good in the end. To say that most people don't vote because of this reason or that... I don't know, what do you base it on? I suspect the liberal media brainwashing... ;)
-
Nicely put, WillyP. I couldn't have said it better. ... though I disagree about Ron Paul, which is just one of the many freedoms enjoyed in the U.S. of A.
-
Balancing the budget and eliminating the IRS is like filling in your hole after selling the dirt that was in it.
-
That may be true, but nonetheless, the hole is there now and needs to be filled.
-
But you seem to be very pessimistic in your views
This is true. When it comes to politics (which I hate) I tend to be very pessimistic. As such, lately I've been trying to keep my interaction with it as minimal as I can manage, because people can only take so much pessimism, myself included. This was one of those topics I couldn't stay out of, though, especially seeing it was a subject where I actually agreed with Karx on something, and that doesn't happen often enough.
And if you really want to see how not to have a country, look around outside the US, point being, the US, overall is still the best...
And again, all very true, and I'm not denying this. The US is indeed still one of the best places to live (to be fair, I don't think places like Canada or England would be that bad) by far. My point is that given the trends I've been seeing pop up in this country, I'm not sure it can last for much longer if they continue like they have been. That's really my biggest point here.
We need to abolish the IRS and eliminate income taxes altogether.
Well, I don't know about abolishing the IRS (could work, as long as there's something to fill in the gap it'll leave) but I'm of the opinion that eliminating any taxes at the moment is a bad idea, simply because that's where the government gets their income, and if you take it away, how the heck are they supposed to pay off the many debts this country's got piled up? I know nobody likes paying taxes (although for me, it's the darn paperwork that burns my biscuits) but the saying that they are a necessary evil is completely true, because no country can exist for long without them. Of course, there are still going to be some methods of taxing that are more unfair and bad than others, and I won't deny that, meaning that any and all taxing needs to be done wisely and carefully. I'm not sure there are any problems with income tax, though, at least from my point of view I don't see any (feel free to enlighten me, though). Personally, I think a bigger issue is how the rich are taxed less for no real reason other than the fact that they ARE rich, and I think it needs to be changed so it's more balanced for all parties.
There is only one candidate who would work toward these changes, and that is Ron Paul.
Admittedly, I haven't really been keeping much of an eye on Ron Paul, but you've said enough in his support that I think I'll do some deeper digging to see where I stand on him. As I said before, at the moment I don't really have a candidate I'm rooting for, and I actually don't like that, so I'd be for finding a candidate that I could support. At the moment, though, I just know I most definitely won't be voting for Newt Gingrich, and while I used to support Mitt Romney, something about him now doesn't sit right with me now (I can't tell you exactly what though, that's the weird thing).
I don't know who you hang with but all...etc
Like I said, I don't like getting too deep into politics, more so in person with people than online, partly because when you're speaking aloud, you're more likely to get caught up in the heat of the moment and say something stupid and arrogant that you're just going to regret later, so, yeah.