Planet Descent

Community => Descent Gameplay => Topic started by: Texace12 on August 22, 2011, 02:35:38 AM

Title: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Texace12 on August 22, 2011, 02:35:38 AM
It's the only think I've ever played Descent in--ever. I think it's time to try something new. My keyboard only "bi-chords" so I need something better. ANY joystick suggestions would be appreciated. I want one that can do it all... perhaps two joysticks? Something with a steering wheel and a pedal? I need names of specific models please. I'm tired of getting my ass kicked in trainee mode with my bichording keyboard. I SWEAR I was able to tri-chord back in the day.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: -<WillyP>- on August 22, 2011, 04:37:02 AM
I tried a dual stick gaming pad... it sucked. Tried also using my stick with pedals... eh... Now I use a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro in my left hand and keyboard right hand. My right hand hits the big + on the numpad to go forward, the 0 for afterburner and Enter for reverse. The stick has all the other movements, pitch yaw and roll, sliding with the hat switch. Also primary and secondary firing, weapon selection headlight and flare. All without removing my hand from the stick. I also have various functions mapped to the rest of the numpad keys, movements and weapons as a second option, and auto-map, rear-view, etc...

I don't think there is one stick that can do it all. Maybe with a throttle on the side? I am thinking something like this: Amazon.com: Saitek X52 Flight Control System: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Saitek-X52-Flight-Control-System/dp/B00030GSJY/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_1)

Also see: DescentiaPedia: Controllers and Setup for Descent (http://www.prepare4descent.net/descentiapedia/DescentControl)
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Shroudeye on August 22, 2011, 05:00:03 AM
Well, I use Keyboard+Mouse combination. My mouse is a Logitech MX Revolution, with customizable buttons. My weapon selection, firing, etc. I handle them from my mouse.

I use FPS-like WASD for Forward/Back and L-R Slide. Spacebar and Left alt are for Vertical sliding, and I use my thumb to pick them. Afterburner is assigned to Left Shift.

Edit: I forgot: Q and E for banking!

For the other surplus commands, like Automap, Rearview (I prefer screens), etc. I'm mostly using the standart keys... In fact I don't use them much, anyway.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: VANGUARD on August 22, 2011, 05:13:14 AM
mine is sort of like WASD

W/S: Forward/Back
A/D: Slide left/right
Q/E: Slide up/Slide down

and I have a Logitech marble mouse. it's a nice one. is it the king of gaming? able to tricord? who knows, lol. I seem to like it though.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Scyphi on August 22, 2011, 07:00:41 AM
Like Shroudeye, I use a keyboard/mouse combo, with, as I recall, most of the default keys kept.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Foil on August 22, 2011, 07:59:24 AM
My setup:
(http://www.belkin.com/images/product/F8GFPC200/STD1_F8GFPC200.jpg) + (http://www.obdev.at/Images/vusb/prj-3dp-vert.jpg)

Works perfectly.  All thrusts are on my left hand, so tri-chording is easy/natural, and the stick works for all the rotations and weapons.

-------------

There are lots of different control configs.  The best ones allow you to easily maneuver in any combination of directions + use weapons, without straining or changing your finger placement.

Also, remember that anytime you change your configuration, it will take a while to get used to.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Bagheera on August 22, 2011, 10:14:21 AM
Kb + mouse

I use wasdc w/c is is slide up down a/d left right s is reverse thrust, and left shift is afterburner. Right mouse button is fire primary and left is accelerate.

Just a regular ole logipwn mouse here...my joystick config is similar, but i hardly play on it,s as all my joysticks keep dying on me >.< im down to one sidewinder now, my joystick death toll is up to 5 now...
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Texace12 on August 22, 2011, 02:06:56 PM
Thanks, WillyP I'll check those out! And that "setup" you got there, Foil, looks like something I've had my mind set on.

My current configuration, which is how I've been playing Descent since 1994 is,

A = Accelerate
S = Flare
D = Reverse
F = Flare
X = Slide Up
Z = Slide Down
G = Headlight Toggle
Left Shift = Primary Weapons
Space Bar = Secondary Weapons
Num 4 = Turn Left
Num 6 = Turn Right
Num 5 = Another Flare button
Num 1 = Slide Left
Num 3 = Slide Right
Num 7 = Bank Left
Num 9 = Bank Right
Num 8 = Pitch Forward
Num 2 = Pitch Backward
Right Arrow (thumb) = Toggle Primary
Num Enter = Toggle Secondary
Num . = Toggle Bomb
Num 0 = Drop Domb
\ = Energy=>Shield Converter
Page Up/Dn = Cruise Control
End = End Cruise Control

It works perfectly and have had some pretty good dogfights with some very skilled pilots, but it's all in the bichording issue. I'm thoroughly used to this configuration, and I used to have it work this way back in the Windows 98 days, but ever since XP and Win 7, those platforms don't like trichording or even quad or quint-chording[if there IS such a thing?] if needed. But I'm going to look into those suggestions for darn sure. I'm getting back into playing again and am currently working on TEW (on Level 13 right now), and unfortunately I have GOT to play it on trainee or die all the time because I can't fly and shoot! I have to stop and shoot and that's stupid!
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: -<WillyP>- on August 22, 2011, 05:21:14 PM
Yep, that looks the balls, Foil. I have a couple of MS sidewinders and they are a nice stick, though I do like the extra buttons on my Logitech. And it fits my hand better. But it lacks the precision of the sidewinders.

Alieo, if you have a game-port on your machine look one-bay for the MS Sidewinder 3D Pro, or the Precision Pro, or something like that. Someone (Foil, I believe it was) said after a certain serial number they are compatible with a USB port and all you need is a simple adapter. You might want to see if you can get one of them.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: NUMBERZero on August 22, 2011, 09:26:56 PM
I've got a Saitek X52 like WillyP suggested. It has a ton of bugs, but I've given it lots of use and abuse and was writhe my money. It has got over 30 buttons. The only game that I know of that can run out of buttons is DCS: A-10 Warthog. The startup sequence for the A-10 would probably take half of them, but still. :P

Plus the pinky trigger is a godsend. I used to have to take my thumb off of the hatswitch to fire a missile, but now I can keep it there and keep moving.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Foil on August 23, 2011, 06:24:28 AM
Alieo, I see what you mean.  With that setup, you're probably getting all kinds of key-conflicts.  That's one of the reasons I eventually went to different controllers.

WillyP, you're correct about the Microsoft sticks.  The original 3D Pro and the earlier Precision Pro (actually a "3D Pro Plus", product id starts with '9') do not have native USB; Grendel's 3DP-Vert (http://grendel.koolbear.com/3dpro.htm) project is the only way to get full USB functionality with them.  The later Precision Pro (product id starts with '8') can use USB with a simple adapter (http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F3U200-08INCH-Joystick-Adapter-SideWinder/dp/B000067RIV).
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Scyphi on August 23, 2011, 06:31:23 AM
@ Alieo: If joystick is the way you want to go, then by all means, but I think adding on a mouse to your keyboard setup alone would help you significantly with your playing issues. Several years ago I used to play only with a keyboard and faced the same issues. Especially had a hard time trying to snipe, because the keys of a keyboard just weren't giving me the precision I needed. So I jumped to mouse, had those problems fixed, never went back.

But a joystick isn't a bad thing either. I just wanted to point out it wasn't your only option. :)
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Shroudeye on August 23, 2011, 09:37:43 AM
Yeah, I'm with Scyphi here about mouse. It is a lower cost alternative for a joysick. It might not be "the" Descent way, though, but it is a matter of choice.

I personally had tried using a Saitek Cyborg evo for a while. But I quickly grew tired of it and held it for simulation genres instead. (Freespace!!)

@Foil: That is a cool hardware, man! I'd like to have one, what is it called? And how much does it cost?
:D
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Foil on August 23, 2011, 09:45:16 AM
@Foil: That is a cool hardware, man! I'd like to have one, what is it called? And how much does it cost?


The pic on the left is a Belkin N52te (http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=390404), which I got for ~$20 via someone selling it on Craigslist.  The earlier-model N52 (which I've used before) might be even cheaper nowadays.

The pic on the right is a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro, which I got for ~$5 (Craigslist again).  I use one of Grendel's USB adapters for it.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Shroudeye on August 23, 2011, 09:52:13 AM
Thanks, Foil. :)
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: blessu on August 30, 2011, 09:26:40 AM
For what its worth, saitek cyborg...tough and does the job...done three logitec wingman extremes, hat rubbish breaks too easily...use as many buttons on stick as poss (keyboard for thrustin etc) also has twist function...so after some practice can slide along walls with a flick, also has lots of adjustment for hat and grip...anyway by the way I am rubbish but its the best stick for me...so far

Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Sapphire Wolf on September 09, 2011, 10:56:02 AM
My setup:
([url]http://www.belkin.com/images/product/F8GFPC200/STD1_F8GFPC200.jpg[/url]) + ([url]http://www.obdev.at/Images/vusb/prj-3dp-vert.jpg[/url])

Works perfectly.  All thrusts are on my left hand, so tri-chording is easy/natural, and the stick works for all the rotations and weapons.

-------------

There are lots of different control configs.  The best ones allow you to easily maneuver in any combination of directions + use weapons, without straining or changing your finger placement.

Also, remember that anytime you change your configuration, it will take a while to get used to.

No offense Foil, but that Belkin N52te looks really weird. :P
I really missed my x52 (I had it from ~2005 to 2010).  I wonder if the T.Flight Hotas X would work perfectly for Descent (contol wise).  Here's what I'm talking about:
http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=149
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: IHateHackers on September 09, 2011, 12:46:45 PM
I would it would be ackward having both hands on the same side of the keyboard. If I had a HOTAS setup it would be like Foil's, and I'd put the thruttle on the other side of the keyboard.

... What do you do if you're left-handed?
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Wraith-1 on September 10, 2011, 09:01:08 PM
I've always used KB only, default config, even in Vortex. The best controller I have is a MS sidewinder force feedback 2, but I never bother to get good at using it...
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: NUMBERZero on September 10, 2011, 10:24:02 PM
You are not going to improve with just the keyboard. It is 99% impossible to get enough control to move in all 6 axises at once and do the other things while getting shot at. The stress is too much and the clutter and reach is absurd.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Kaiaatzl on September 11, 2011, 10:27:17 AM
I've met some really good players who use only KB.
I guess they were better at handling that stress :P.  Anything's possible.

Personally I prefer KB and mouse to just KB, but I can't for the life of me use a joystick (and I keep trying).
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Ronin RedFox on September 11, 2011, 10:32:50 AM
You are not going to improve with just the keyboard. It is 99% impossible to get enough control to move in all 6 axises at once and do the other things while getting shot at. The stress is too much and the clutter and reach is absurd.

You seemed pretty amazed when I showed you yesterday.  :P
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: NUMBERZero on September 11, 2011, 12:43:28 PM
I was impressed, but still, I don't think you're gonna get anywhere with that.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Ronin RedFox on September 11, 2011, 03:14:24 PM
I don't get anywhere because I don't play.  :P I should get back to it, though.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: IHateHackers on September 11, 2011, 07:08:34 PM
It's better with a PS2 keyboard. At least they can manage enough keypresses. USB keyboards will only take like 6 buttons.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Scyphi on September 12, 2011, 06:14:03 AM
Yet another reason I went to keyboard and mouse, I got fed up of trying to play on keyboards that wouldn't let me press enough buttons at the same time.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: IHateHackers on September 12, 2011, 10:18:47 AM
Wait, you mean you used to play with ONLY keyboard? Not even mouse? I'm fairly sure we're talking about keyboard and mouse here. I can't even imagine trying to play with only a keyboard.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: InsanityBringer on September 12, 2011, 04:00:43 PM
I used to try it in the D1/D2 days. I could never get very far with it. Level 6 in D1 was nigh-impossible, and the first boss was very hard to do without getting blown up by the smart blobs left and right.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Ronin RedFox on September 12, 2011, 04:07:33 PM
I can't even imagine trying to play with only a keyboard.

That's the way I play, and I will not change it.  :P
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Kaiaatzl on September 12, 2011, 05:05:04 PM
I used to try it in the D1/D2 days. I could never get very far with it. Level 6 in D1 was nigh-impossible, and the first boss was very hard to do without getting blown up by the smart blobs left and right.

 :o
I've beaten D2 on hotshot with a KB + Mouse setup -- and I got significantly far in D1 (I think level 22) on the same difficulty before I got bored/lost my save.
(This was just recently -- last year maybe?)
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: InsanityBringer on September 12, 2011, 05:31:48 PM
I was implying keyboard only -- I can do pretty good with KB+Mouse, it's the config I'm used to :P
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Scyphi on September 13, 2011, 06:32:51 AM
Quote from: IHateHackers
Wait, you mean you used to play with ONLY keyboard? Not even mouse?

When I first started playing Descent, yes, I played with ONLY the keyboard at first, but eventually started transitioning to a mouse/KB arrangement when I discovered I couldn't snipe worth a darn with just the keyboard. :P
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Foil on September 13, 2011, 07:14:47 AM
I started as keyboard-only, myself.  Eventually went to keyboard+joystick.

Now I'm actually considering switching to N52te+mouse+pedals, if I can find a good set.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Kaiaatzl on September 13, 2011, 01:50:08 PM
Novastar (from the D2X-XL and Pumo Software forums).  Unless I misread something, his modus operandi in Descent is Insane-only, keyboard only.

I've watched some youtube videos of his gameplay -- definitely works for singleplayer but I think he would be challenged in multi.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: IHateHackers on September 13, 2011, 11:41:38 PM
I just can't imagine trying something as imprecise as keyboard-only. I'm pretty bad as it is with keyboard+joystick.
Title: Re: SICK of the Keyboard
Post by: Foil on September 14, 2011, 07:13:05 AM
In my experience, there are a very few really good keyboard-only pilots out there, some beyond my level, but none of them are at the very top. 

Of the very top pilots I've ever played, about 2/3 are kb+mouse, the other 1/3 are kb+joystick or some other control system.