Planet Descent

Development => Descent Development => Topic started by: -<WillyP>- on January 26, 2011, 06:05:55 PM

Title: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on January 26, 2011, 06:05:55 PM
This is an idea I have, to build a level, or maybe even a level set, by crowd-sourcing.   If you are not familiar with the term crowd-sourcing, it just means everybody who wants to participate, can, and a vote is taken for various questions that come up.  Including how this would all go down.  What do you think... can this be done, and does anybody want to?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Darkflamewolf on January 26, 2011, 08:50:58 PM
well something similar to that was tried and resulted in The Enemy Within.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on January 27, 2011, 06:48:27 AM
I tried a similar tactic with Project Pavilion, but as we should all know, it didn't work out, so apparently it's a hit-and-miss tactic. Depends on how you do it, I suppose.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on January 31, 2011, 08:18:18 PM
It's an awsome idea in theory.  The only hitch is finding people dedicated enough to spend their time chipping in towards the project.  It seems most ideas such as this die because everyone is all talk, and no work.

I, for one, would be willing to contribute.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 01, 2011, 04:19:19 AM
Ok, here are some questions that need to be answered: D1, 2 or 3?  Multiplayer or single?  Gametype if multiplayer? Name?  Feel free to add more questions, but let's stick to general questions for now.

There is commitment required.  If we answer these questions and that's as far as it goes, so be it.  If anyone wants to take the time to discuss these issues, then after some time I'll put up a poll.

I have some ideas for a D3 Multiplayer, robo anarchy that would play kinda like a string of d1/2 levels.  Players would start out at one end of the level and have to fight hoards of bots and turrets, as well as each other, and then destroy a reactor.  This would be in a small section of the level.  Destroying the reactor would open the next section, and fill the first section with a radioactive, toxic fog.  So the players would move from one section to the next, but still respawn in the first.  There would be maybe three sections like this, with the last reactor forcing the player to find an exit, ending the level.

Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 01, 2011, 07:05:30 AM
I like that idea. :)

Although if I were to participate, I would more likely produce results if it was a D1/D2 level, because I know how to build levels for that like the back of my hand.

D3, on the other hand...I'm slowly getting the hang of it, but not only am I not the best at it, it also requires significantly more time and effort than I can dedicate for the moment.  :(
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on February 01, 2011, 07:11:12 PM
May I suggest Descent 3, because it supports team building better?  Level designers could build their respective pieces which would be easy to import into a collective feature.  I don't think Descent 2 supports importing/exporting parts?  I'd also like to point out my extreme bias because of my experience with D3. ;p

I'm really indifferent to the game type, though a single-player might be enjoyed more than a multiplayer in the long run.

@WillyP  That's a very interesting scenario.  Would it play out as a 1 v 1 tug-of-war with players starting on opposite ends trying to destroy one another's personal reactor?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 01, 2011, 09:47:58 PM
I don't think Descent 2 supports importing/exporting parts?

It does actually (block files) but it's not as simple as saving a room when it's finished anyway.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 02, 2011, 06:40:19 AM
Quote from: Babylon
I'd also like to point out my extreme bias because of my experience with D3.

That's okay. To be fair, I'm extremely bias too, but that's because of my experience with D1/D2 editing, so in short, the opposite from your case.

That, and the fact that I can actually wrap my mind around D1/D2 editing. After years of experimenting with D3 editing, I still can't figure out some of it's quirks. :P

Quote from: wazzazzle
It does actually (block files) but it's not as simple as saving a room when it's finished anyway.

Furthermore, in my mind, because building D1/D2 levels tend to be much simpler, there's almost no point doing it that way. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of anybody doing it that way before for a D1/D2 level.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 02, 2011, 07:25:59 AM
May I suggest Descent 3, because it supports team building better?  Level designers could build their respective pieces which would be easy to import into a collective feature.  I don't think Descent 2 supports importing/exporting parts?  I'd also like to point out my extreme bias because of my experience with D3. ;p

I'm really indifferent to the game type, though a single-player might be enjoyed more than a multiplayer in the long run.

@WillyP  That's a very interesting scenario.  Would it play out as a 1 v 1 tug-of-war with players starting on opposite ends trying to destroy one another's personal reactor?

The way I envisioned it, players would start out in an area, let's call it blue.  All the players spawn in blue.  At the other end of blue, there is a blue reactor. Players fight their way through blue, battling bots and each other for the honor, and maybe some points, of destroying blue reactor.
Once Blue reactor is destroyed, a door to area yellow opens, and blue begins to flood with a blue radioactive fog.  The fog does some damage to any ship in blue area.  So all the players move to yellow, and repeat the scenario with tougher bots and a more well protected reactor.  Players still spawn in blue area, and must move quickly to yellow.

After the yellow reactor succumbs, again the area is flooded with radio active fog, this time yellow, a door opens and now players move to red area.  Players still re-spawn in blue area and must now battle through blue area and yellow area to rejoin the battle.

Conquering the red reactor opens an emergency escape route, a red fog forms, and the players fight to escape and the level ends.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 02, 2011, 09:30:28 AM
I like that idea, except for the spawning in blue part.  I can see serious gameplay problems coming up if the exits aren't placed just right.  Especially if, for example, a player has to leave to use the bathroom.  It will count as a suicide when the level kills you (lava, robots, etc) I believe.  If you get into a fight while going to the current area, even if you win the fight you'll probably just die afterward so there's no net gain in points.
Also the damage you'd take trying to get out of the blue and yellow areas would mean you'd die and end up back in there that much faster.
And with this type of level building it wouldn't be very likely that you could arrange it so the exits are placed just right.
I think there should be multiple waypoints in each area for player starts.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on February 02, 2011, 10:34:22 AM
It sounds quite a bit like the existing "Assault" 2-team mod for Descent3.

The source code for that mod is available.  Might not take much work to adjust it to work for the above idea.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 02, 2011, 01:14:21 PM
I don't believe my idea needs any mod other than robo-anarchy.  It only needs to trigger doors, fog and room-damage when a reactor is blown, and end the level when a player reaches the end of the escape tunnel.  I believe that is all doable in any gametype.  But I could be wrong.

The damage done in each area would be slight, just enough to encourage players to move along.  Presumably most of the bots would be destroyed by then anyway.  But maybe spawn points could be turned on for only the area currently at play, not sure about that.

I don't know what you mean by 'And with this type of level building it wouldn't be very likely that you could arrange it so the exits are placed just right.', since we have not discussed level design or how it would be built yet.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 02, 2011, 01:18:32 PM
First poll up!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 02, 2011, 03:09:11 PM
I meant if you are recieving rooms/level structures from other people you don't have as much control over what goes where ;).
I think doing this for a singleplayer level/campaign would be awesome- oh wait that's what we're doing with Army of Haloon :D.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 02, 2011, 04:58:31 PM
I don't think it will work that way.  I think we will discuss designs, then anyone who builds will follow the winning design.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on February 02, 2011, 05:25:34 PM
You could also make a rough layout of the level in general, and then assign specific parts to different people.  (i.e. Willy P gets the spawning room, wazzazzle gets the yellow reactor section, Scyphi gets the blue reactor section, etc.)

To better support competition between players, couldn't you make the tougher robots/reactors drop hoard orbs?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 02, 2011, 05:38:58 PM
Well, the idea is you can propose any idea you want.  We will have some discussion,then a poll if there is an interest in the idea.

Don't think that just because I started the thread, that I am in charge, or that my ideas have any priority.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 03, 2011, 07:03:17 AM
But...it was your idea. That kind of, by default, puts you in some kind of leadership position. :P

The more I hear about this reactor idea, the more I like it. Dunno how much help I'd be in making it a reality, though. :(
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 03, 2011, 07:06:24 AM
Just by inputting your ideas you can help immensly.  And as far as me being the leader, more like a mentor to the project, kinda like a moderator in a thread, would be more like it.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 03, 2011, 01:23:56 PM
I think someone should think of a name.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 04, 2011, 07:13:39 AM
"Triaction." Or "Triactor." Take your pick.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 05, 2011, 03:50:04 AM
my 5c about:

too many new Anarchy levels, which no one will play, are on the marked, so I would vote for a SP-Level(set)
Not too many levels should be inside that mission, let's say 1-3 or 4.
This makes a project build-able. Monster-level-sets are not good because production takes too long and are complicate to handle.
Even building 3 or 4 levels, good levels, are not done such easy.

So I like Willy's basic idea with the good old blue, yellow, red area theme, why? It's reminds me the joy I had starting D1 that days.
I even would like to see the -3 ship only idea- again with *earning* a bonus ship ore some more by killing enough robos.
I know that younger consumers really don't like to 'beat', to 'work' for the success through modern games and will give up too early,
but exact this was the winner idea inside D1 and other good old games.
If you lost your amount of ships you have to start again. This way I had to enter some D1 levels over and over again. (from the point I saved for sure)
Folks, let me say the truth, I really had fear to look around the next corner...
I WANTED to beat that level(s) with limited equipment.., and it was a joy if I did...

Later D3 gave us millions of ships, so I had no fear to fly aggressive through the mines, why should I be careful? Why should I look for shields, for energy or why should I use my weapons carefully?
This was not what I liked to play and maybe D3 missing success could be fixed by that wrong point of gameplay.

One more idea:
The last level could have a boss who maybe would be a teleporting-reactor-bot ;)

If you want coop levels you should be aware about too much customs inside.
Keep it all flat and the project could be finished. Don't try to insert too much.


 
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 05, 2011, 10:11:37 AM
If we do it like that I have a 7 minute song that could be split into regions for the level.  I made it with a level like this in mind -- sort of a thought experiment.

Atan, what would you think of a D1/D2 style D3 level -- but with outdoor areas?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 05, 2011, 10:39:15 AM
Quote
what would you think of a D1/D2 style D3 level -- but with outdoor areas?
Please define us D1/D2 style a little more. What's in your mind exactly, thinking about this?

As for the outdoor area,
D1/D2 style levels would need this if you want the Exit-tunnels too.

And if you would think about SP level: Would be fine, if that area is not too big.
It's  hard to stop the robots outside. All will run towards you, so if you have a plain area, all robots will come to kiss you. Later you fly through the rest without an enemy left :)
So it will be hard work to design a good playable outdoor area I think.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 05, 2011, 03:53:23 PM
I can think of ways to deal with the robot problems... have robots that are ghosted and unghost once you've completed your objective/as you progress/as you destroy other robots.

I'd like to see something more like the D2 style where the normal/blue/yellow/red areas aren't so precisely defined as they were in D1, or, say, Refactor.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 05, 2011, 04:39:55 PM
Atan, you have made some good points. We had a discussion some time ago where you mentioned about having only three ships, so I made two levels, which are like D1 style play, in D3: ReFactor (http://www.prepare4descent.net/descentiapedia/ReFactor) and IceFactor (http://www.prepare4descent.net/descentiapedia/IceFactor).  In each of these levels, you do the standard hostages/keys/reactor thing, you get only three ships, and also I put a timer on re-spawning, if you die you only have a limited time to re-pawn or you fail the level.  ReFactor pretty much went the standard d1 thing of getting a key to open a door, but then you have to blow up some force-field generators to lower the force-field to get into the reactor room.  In IceFactor, you have to break some ice, after using the key to turn off the ice-maker, then go underwater, blow up a chiller, then blow up some force-feild generators, and finaly battle a huge room with too many bots. Then blow up the reactor.  The third level hasn't been finished yet but I decided to turn it around so you battle reactors in order to get keys.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 05, 2011, 05:44:29 PM
What's the third level's style?  (By style I mean Beach, Alien, Fire, etc).  Depending on what it is I may have a song that could be split into regions and work for the level (it even has a death theme).
I also have a few songs that might work for IceFactor, check out "Project Fatty" and "Digital Worlds" in the Gallery.  Karx has asked if he can use the soundtrack that I made for Warp Shockwave as the official soundtrack for the mission and it includes Digital Worlds (but not Project Fatty).  So Digital Worlds may be off-limits.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 06, 2011, 06:31:02 AM
Actually, in regards to music, y'know what might be fun to do? Do remixes of already existing Descent songs, and have each area play a different song.

Like, for example, to take advantage of the fact that D2's midi songs only had four to choose from, the blue section plays level 1's music, yellow section plays level 2, red section plays level three, and since Atan suggested it, maybe we could a fourth section with a boss that plays level 4 music.

Just a suggestion, though.

On the boss subject, though, I think that's actually a pretty good idea, making for a good finale, and when you really think about it, it's fitting for the classic Descent feel we seem to be aiming for with this. As for it's theme, seeing that we'll have exhausted the three standard and obvious colors, I'm thinking a cool idea would be to revive the alien theme from D3 Mercenary's level 4. I abhor playing through that level...but the alien theme it bore was still dang cool, and really was kind of overdue to appear in Descent. So I think that'd be both fun and climatic if the last boss section kind of visually mirrored that theme. B)

One more thing, in regards to Atan's request that it be an SP mission...I completely agree with the argument that D3 needs more SP levels, but as we can all agree...that's hard to build. Furthermore, given the nature of WillyP's  Triactor idea (or whatever we're calling it), I think it'd work best and to it's full potential if it was a multiplayer level, as I can see that being SERIOUSLY fun. An SP version of this level I can only see as being partly as successful.

So, in short, while I agree there need to be more D3 SP levels out there, I don't think this particularly level idea should be one.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 06, 2011, 07:23:00 AM
What's the third level's style?  (By style I mean Beach, Alien, Fire, etc).  Depending on what it is I may have a song that could be split into regions and work for the level (it even has a death theme).
I also have a few songs that might work for IceFactor, check out "Project Fatty" and "Digital Worlds" in the Gallery.  Karx has asked if he can use the soundtrack that I made for Warp Shockwave as the official soundtrack for the mission and it includes Digital Worlds (but not Project Fatty).  So Digital Worlds may be off-limits.

In the third level you take on the evil mastermind behind the first two levels, when you enter his own lair. The theme is pure evil.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 06, 2011, 07:49:15 AM
New poll up for gametype.  I just went down the list of D3M file in my D3 installation, since D3 seems well ahead in the first poll.  There are some I've listed that I have never even played, they are included because I installed D3 via Thomas' D3 installer package.  Some I have played but never quite got a handle on what I was supposed to do during the game.  I left off OG3, as IIRC it was very buggy.  And a couple I never heard of, but if there ar any you'd like to vote for feel free to speak up.  I left the option to change your vote, in case I add more options.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 06, 2011, 08:27:28 AM
Lets see. There's already a billion Anarchy levels. Lots SP levels. Co-op is fun, but Geordon trolls around in those. CTF is a no go since Venis takes that over, but VEX sometimes hosts CTF games. Entropy is FUN, but nobody knows how to play (shame), but VEX hosts those sometimes.

Can't decide. I'll get back to this.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 06, 2011, 09:05:47 AM
I'd love to see a robo-anarchy compatible level for D3, but I also desperately want more singleplayer.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 06, 2011, 10:23:43 AM
I'm not the one who is playing online such much, so my vote is clear.
Since I try to come back playing a little D3 online again I can't see much other than boz playing.
If I would have to wait until randomly 2-3 players could find together to start a coop or similar D3gametype, I would never have a chance to play.
But with a SP mission I'm the one who starts a game whenever I want it.
If a mission would not be too complicated, it would not too big and would beatable, then I would look if I could get more of that.
If there would be a little surprise inside, things to make me laughing, to let me say ooohhh, yes I think I would love to wait for the next 3 Level mission then.
F.E: please have a look at LOTR mission set which we made for online gaming only. What a nice and good work, but I can't say that it was/is played much later.
If that mission-set would have designed for SP then it would have been unforgotten.

Ok, I'm not the one to decide what should be done, I would only like to tell you my ideas about and why I'm thinking this way.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: TechPro on February 06, 2011, 12:20:53 PM
I voted for SP because (like Atan) I'm the one who starts a game when I want it.

However... it's too bad I couldn't vote for more than one because I'd love to see more Frag-Tag and Break-out levels for MP play.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on February 06, 2011, 12:32:42 PM
Ok, I'm not the one to decide what should be done, I would only like to tell you my ideas about and why I'm thinking this way.

That's as much as anyone can do; any input is welcomed. :)

I vote for single-player as well; it will be enjoyed much more than another anarchy (which is all anyone ever plays anyway) would be.  With a large enough number of contributors, it also divides the tremendous workload that a single-player would usually entail, making it much more feasible.

While I say singleplayer, the gameplay should entail more than a single-player level usually does; there should be some sort of fun gameplay gimmick that takes it above and beyond what's been done in other SP's so far.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 06, 2011, 12:34:06 PM
Robo-Anarchy for WillyP's idea.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 06, 2011, 01:43:39 PM
Co-op is fun, but Geordon trolls around in those...

I don't find him so bad in Co-op as he is in Anarchy... easier to ignore.
Of course it may also be that he's scared of me (as Otterhawk).
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 06, 2011, 02:53:43 PM
He's more scared of me, and he immediately leaves when I show up with my alt.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 06, 2011, 05:00:33 PM
I voted for SP because (like Atan) I'm the one who starts a game when I want it.

However... it's too bad I couldn't vote for more than one because I'd love to see more Frag-Tag and Break-out levels for MP play.

Well, no reason we can't do this again after this one is done, or even concurrently with this one.  Though, I would like to see us all focused on one at a time.

Atan, you are right, it is not for you to decide. Or me, or any one individual, nor is it even a team descision.  That is what makes crowd-sourcing different.  Anyone can pop in, voice an opinion, and cast a vote in any poll that is still open.  And if anyone thinks a poll should be reopened, feel free to bring that up, too.  I guess I have kinda made some assumptions about the amount of discussion we are having before a poll, and how long a poll should be open, etc, but don't take it as law.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 06, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
He's more scared of me, and he immediately leaves when I show up with my alt.

Well then what are you worried about? :P
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 06, 2011, 11:22:03 PM
He's still annoying as heck.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 07, 2011, 07:25:07 AM
Like I said, I'd be all for another single-player level myself, and concur with all the reasons why it'd be the better choice...

...but like I already said, I feel like applying that to WillyP's idea would actually lessen it. Better to apply it to multiplayer, to exploit what I think is it's full potential.

Of course, we could always do other levels in these gaming types, but at the moment, WillyP's idea is the only idea we've got to work with at the moment.

I suppose we could compromise and built it (or multiple versions thereof) for more than one gametype. Like maybe an SP version AND an MP version, supporting multiply MP game-types.

In the case of WillyP's idea, however, if it does become a MP, the only game types I see at the moment that'd it work the best for is Robo-anarchy and Assault. That, and Co-Op. Anything else would mean WillyP's idea would have to go without a few things, or have to be modified in such a way that it wouldn't work as it has been proposed.

I haven't voted yet, and probably will still hold off for a little while longer still, but I say in the case of WillyP's idea, MP is the way to go. So either we not do that level this time and come up with a different idea, or we hold off on doing something like SP for another time.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 07, 2011, 08:11:03 AM
I strongly oppose the single player game because we already have a billion SP levels and this one is going to get worn out like the rest and then we'll all be demanding for a new one.

Also, it is going to get veeeeeery repetitive. You are going to learn the positions of the bots, their paths, their tricks, their exploits, etc. And that's what dries out many SP levels.


If we went with WillyP's idea, you not only have the bots to worry about, but the ever unpredictable player. You will never know if he is hiding around the corner. You could hold a truce for a while. You don't know if those blue lasers that he was shooting a second ago was a trap for his real weapons of a smart and a Barney Blaster. You do not know which bots he has already smoked out. That prox mine was a spy. GEORDON!

So many more elements.

Plus, launch it in single player to play single player. Don't have to go to multiplayer every time.


And please use the original siren for the escape. It IS in D3. You hear it when you are discovered by the cameras in Lv 11. The file name is simply called "siren."
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 10, 2011, 12:09:26 AM
I agree, that would be a cool idea to go.

So when do we start? :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 10, 2011, 03:30:37 AM
Right now singleplayer is leading the poll by a fairly wide margin, so we need some singleplayer ideas.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 10, 2011, 05:15:18 AM
Well, we got your idea of "zoned"-playing, that sound a go for me-we can always adjust the original idea to fit...

Also, if you like, I came up with an idea of a sorts after watching the movie "Sanctum", that may be interesting... Here it goes:

The player (OR group of players) gets stuck down in an unexplored cavern system, after a teleporter failure took the transporter offline and damaged their ship's systems. Their objective is simply to repair the teleporter system, by searching for resources in the tunnels and get the hell out of there before their oxygen runs out... And they would have to fight a horde of bots and environmental hazards along the way...

I was preparing to test this, but I'd like to hear your comments as well...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 10, 2011, 06:30:02 AM
The idea of zoned playing, as you call it, when applied to SP is not much different from the standard get the keys blow he reactor formula.  I like your idea of having to find parts to repair something.  The twist is having the timer run from level-start.  Perhaps the parts location could somehow be randomized, that might extend the replay value a bit.

Anyway, here is another idea for a multiplayer level, I started on this years ago and couldn't get the script to work correctly: TITANIUM (http://www.prepare4descent.net/d3/d3mp/ti.html).  Unfortunatly this game would pretty much require a large number of players in the game to be effective.  I'm thinking at least 5 on each team.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 10, 2011, 07:11:05 AM
If we need single-player ideas, I do have a backlog of 36+ level ideas we could possibly draw from that I'm not using at the moment. :P

But there is one in particular I'd love to do.

See, I was replaying D1 level 13 not that long ago, and I just randomly got to thinking about how it'd be cool to rebuild the level in D3, but it had been left in ruins after it's reactor had blown. Kind of like that brief spot in D3 lvl 10 (?) that briefly showed D1 lvl 1's ruins, but bigger, showing more of the level in navigable ruins. Shortly thereafter I got the idea that maybe the virus had reinfected the mine for reasons unknown and hotwired a replacement reactor (I'm guessing the bots built it from scratch) in to power as much of the mine's ruins as possible, to possibly start rebuilding it, but their way, possibly creating structures reminiscent of D3 Merc Lvl 4, maybe even complete with some of those hive bots. I'd personally think this would be cool, because you'd be going down these ruined tunnels of an old D1 mine (which is cool in of itself), then suddenly turn right and BAM! Suddenly you find yourself in the middle of Merc. Lvl 4. 8)

More details on demand, if anybody's interested. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 10, 2011, 07:37:40 AM
That's a cool idea, if some infected bots rebuilt a reactor who knows what mad-a double ess crap it could do.  And yeah it was pretty neat coming across the ruin of D1L1 in D3L10(?)!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 10, 2011, 09:19:41 AM
Now wait a minute, you can still do robo anarchy in singleplayer. Everyone knows about Blue Devil from the Mercenary expansion, right? Bunch of Pyros to destory, but there was no true finish to the level after you killed them all.

I think it is possible to have a finishable robo-anarchy level.

One robo-anarchy level in D2 was finishable because it obviously always has a Reactor and then an exit.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 10, 2011, 10:14:52 AM
For robo-anarchy, how about if I present an alternation of my idea:

All the players start off trapped in a large cavern system. There is one teleporter which is the only means of escape, but your ship must be loaded with a certain amount of a substance of sorts for the teleporter to operate. And guess what, there is just enough resource for ONE ship to get out alive. So they have to fight for the resource, and they are to fight with bots, the environment... and their fellows.

That would be a total anarchy, wasn't?

I actually remember a similar multiplayer mod in MS's "StarLancer", where the players had to collect 8 "nuke charges" (?) and pass thru a hypergate to score; which in turn creates a supernova that blasts all other players...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Ronin RedFox on February 10, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
That is an amazing idea. Do it. Now.  :P
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 10, 2011, 11:42:29 AM
Lol, I should show you the 1 on 1 anarchy level I made which is scripted to sometimes give a player Annoying Superpowers (like 300 shields and 300 energy) but balances it out when that player is killed (usually because all other players get a cloaking device).
It's not a very balanced game, usually ending up with each player killing the other several times without dying, and then that player dies and the fortunes reverse for an equal amount of time, and so on, ad infinitum...
I think it would be more fun if it supported more than 2 players.  The game would definitely be more dynamic.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on February 10, 2011, 12:20:21 PM
I actually remember a similar multiplayer mod in MS's "StarLancer", where the players had to collect 8 "nuke charges" (?) and pass thru a hypergate to score; which in turn creates a supernova that blasts all other players...

^^^^
THIS!!

If this can't be DALLAS-scripted (e.g. it needs a .d3m mod), let me know.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 10, 2011, 12:37:27 PM
So. We just want to see other players burn in agony eh FOIL?! :D

Okay, there is our game, finalized:

-Players are TRAPPED in the cavern system. Only way out is the teleporter, which activates with a substance.
-The substance is highly volatile, which means activating the teleporter will trigger a massive meltdown that will destroy the entire cavern system.
-There are bots present, which extract the substance for themselves they are not happy by the presence of the players.
-There is just enough substance for ONE ship. Who goes FIRST, is the LAST.

Looks like a hectic "Power Struggle"?

By the way, I'm calling this "our game", cuz as I read, anyone on this site can participate in the project?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 10, 2011, 02:05:03 PM
So the bots are extracting this substance from the mine, and the players have to destroy the bots to get it?

Now, lets say there are 8 players and each of them destroy a bot and get one piece, since 8 peices are needed they need to kill all of the 7 other players to get the 8 pieces?

Then, if I have 7 pieces, everyone is gunning for me... except the one guy who has the last peice, who is hiding?

If someone is killed, does the killer get all the pieces the killed had? Or do they float around like powerups, and other players have to pick them up, or do they return to the mine and you have to kill more bots?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on February 10, 2011, 02:39:39 PM
Good questions. 

Sounds like it could get a bit like "high orbs-to-score Hoard", where players are guarding the goals, and trying to snatch up all the orbs for the huge payoff.

... Not that that's a bad thing.  It's frantic, but fun.  :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 10, 2011, 02:57:02 PM
Hmm. I guess I left that part a little foggy... And it IS a critical decision, which will actually get the game going...

I think we can make some brainstorming about it too? Here I go:

To be honest, WillyP, I was thinking that those substances can be picked up like powerups... but your idea about getting them from the bots sounds better, so we got our source.

About the "hiding" players with powerups... well, we said that the substance is "highly volatile", so the player who got substance on board can take some damage... and the more substance the player has/the more it damages. An alternative to this, the substance can simply evaporate over time instead of damaging (May be better for a little less hectic game for new ones). So if the player waits too long he/she loses valuable resources or gets destroyed...

Lastly, what happens if a player destroys a "carrier": The substance can simply be destroyed (again its "volatile" nature helps), so the players must go hunting for substance... That also means that there are a "lot" more substance instead of "just enough"... Well, that is an easy change, as the teleporter gets destroyed with a huge blast that devours all the players except the "Survivor"!

One thing remains then... what happens if two players with sufficient substance (8 units or not, it depends on the map's size) teleports at the same time?

A. It can be allowed so players win the game "tied"
or
B. The maximum "alive" bots for an instance which carries the substance can be limited, so having 2 or more players carrying it becomes a little difficult...

Feel free to share your ideas...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 10, 2011, 06:11:29 PM
How about this:  There are a given number of parts needed to repair a machine to exit. At level start, these parts are each held by a bot, and the players must destroy a bot to get a part.  But the player does not know which bots have parts and which don't.  So, lets say 8 parts are needed to exit the mine, there are 10 in the level. The first player to accumulate the 8 parts heads to the exit and fights his way out, because once the 8 parts are got all the other players will know who has them.

If a player destroys a bot or kills a player carrying a part, he won't automatically get the part, he will have to pick it up, like spew when a player dies.  Other players or bots could pick it up.

Because there are 10 parts, a player with one or two won't be as likely to be hunted by the player with 10.  And therefore no point in hiding.  A player with three parts will know that without one of those three, no other player can escape.  But since no one knows who has how many parts, he won't know if 7 other players each have one, or one player has 7 or if some are held by bots, or what.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on February 10, 2011, 07:57:09 PM
It becomes more of an arena-styled multiplayer at that point.  If the level is built like a regular mine would be, it will take too long / be too confusing for players to find one another; even more so when there's not a way to see / track who's carrying what.

That aside, perhaps there could be a time limit until the entire level is destroyed by some cataclysmic event (persay, in five minutes the cavern will flood), and the competition is for an (potentially) infinite supply of something (persay, air capsules).  Robots would still drop mission critical items (e.g. air capsules) at random (the higher the difficulty of bot, the higher the rate/number of drops) and of course you could still plunder other players.  Players would respawn back at the beginning, so as to avoid initial confusion as to who still possesses the mission critical items (e.g. air capsules); the beginning area itself should be inaccessible once left.  When the time limit expires the level ends, and the player with the highest amount of mission critical items (e.g. air capsules) wins.

Alternately, you could work in the exit strategy and have the exit (or safe house) open 60 seconds before the time limit expires and have all robot matcens shut down, leading to some serious last minute brawling...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 11, 2011, 06:56:02 AM
Anyone ever thought over a self-modifying level structure?
Owning several possible ways through the mine, which would be activated randomly, while level start?
This way no one would know the best way, each time it's a new challenge.., hmm  but just as long as the level will own possibilities.
If this would work a mine could modify itself while fighting from start to exit too.
Just an other idea, don't really know if this would be possible, while playing online..
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 11, 2011, 07:51:28 AM
About a level-layout, I'm working on a basic layout on 3DsMAX by now, I'll upload a screenie shortly... (And BTW thanks for the newest release Atan, the converter tool is really handy!!)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 11, 2011, 10:21:01 AM
Quote from: DarcShadowFox
That is an amazing idea. Do it. Now.

Which idea? :P I'm guessing Shroudeye's idea.

Speaking of which, this is sounding something like some twisted version of CTF or some such. I like, though it does sound like it's getting a little complicated. Could we seriously do all of this and keep it in robo-anarchy?

Quote from: Atan
Anyone ever thought over a self-modifying level structure?

You would probably know better than I would, but wouldn't a possible way be to create multiple routes to get to the same area, but have certain ones be forcefielded off at certain intervals, forcing players to take only a limited number of paths? If so, then this would fit in well with our group-building idea. Each person builds a different path, we combine them all together into one level, do a little fine-tuning, and viola!

Quote from: Babylon
...perhaps there could be a time limit until the entire level is destroyed by some cataclysmic event (persay, in five minutes the cavern will flood)...

You know what I always wanted to? Build a level that starts you at one end of it with the goal to escape, but as you go along, the level is slowly filling up with lava (like the lava pits in Dravis's Sanctuary). If you aren't quick enough, you get trapped and die in the flooding lava. :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 11, 2011, 10:28:51 AM
Well I got this basic model of the cavern system of mine... It is a simple layout consisting of two rings that have rooms attached, and a center cavern shaped like a hourglass, which will house the teleport at its "neck"

I'm sending some pictures...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on February 11, 2011, 11:31:23 AM
Nice and vertical.  I like it!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 11, 2011, 11:42:46 AM
Could we seriously do all of this and keep it in robo-anarchy?

Single-player is leading right now, 7-2.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 11, 2011, 04:40:38 PM
Nice and vertical.  I like it!
Yeah, infinitely better than some D3 levels *cough*skybox*cough* that look like they could have been made for a groundpounder.  Even some of the better singleplayer levels were like that.
This is why I like Retribution's secret level 2 so much.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on February 11, 2011, 04:49:14 PM
You're all moving too fast.  xD

The only thing that's been decided so far is Descent 3, with a lean towards single-player; I'd like to point out that the direction of this forum and its poll strongly disagree with one another in that aspect.  Rectify your votes, please!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 11, 2011, 04:56:35 PM
All I really said was that I like vertical layouts... I think that's what Foil was saying too.
If Shroudeye can make the level that fast he can make it independantly... he wasn't really violating the thread.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 11, 2011, 07:29:19 PM
You can change your vote by clicking 'remove vote'.  But nobody is really violating any rule, because there are none. ;)

But it's good to flesh out some ideas, even if we decide not to use them.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on February 11, 2011, 08:03:33 PM
Who said anything about violating threads and rules?  We are all chipping in concepts and fleshing out ideas.  I'm just saying that the thread is inconsistant - there needs to be a better way to organize all this.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 12, 2011, 01:30:08 AM
Well, violating the thread wasn't my intention for the first... I was simply showing an example level for this "resource/part collecting and bailing out" idea we've been discussing lately...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 12, 2011, 06:49:49 AM
But Robo-Anarchy is technically Singleplayer if you play alone. Switch da votes!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 12, 2011, 07:15:36 AM
At this point, I'm pretty much okay with either one, Robo-anarchy or Singleplayer, on the reasoning that both could work for this idea.

And Omega's got a point; surely it's not unreasonable to be able to build a level that could do both?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 12, 2011, 02:42:06 PM
Maybe we should vote for ideas, instead of gametype?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 12, 2011, 03:48:17 PM
Yeah, it would be better... and yes, the singleplayer missions are both support Co-Op and Robo-Anarchy, so we got 3 modes in just one mission... It just depends on the gamestyle set by server, the player(s) either help each other... or kill each other!!!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 12, 2011, 04:06:02 PM
As for robo-anarchy, maybe there should be some way to close off parts of the level in that gametype so that it's not too big for the players, but can be large in singleplayer.  I'm not sure how you would do that, I did have an idea a while ago for a level that would adjust its size based on the number of players.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: TechPro on February 12, 2011, 08:57:12 PM
As for robo-anarchy, maybe there should be some way to close off parts of the level in that gametype so that it's not too big for the players, but can be large in singleplayer.  I'm not sure how you would do that, I did have an idea a while ago for a level that would adjust its size based on the number of players.
I suspect that's not hard (but I'm not familiar with the coding to do it) because all you need are Single Player goals/objectives which when triggered open access to the additional areas.  That way, when NOT playing in SP mode, you are unable to get into those areas.

The same thing happens in some of the Mercenary levels because some allow other game play modes but are not coded for it, making them impossible to do in anything but SP mode.

So just make it fun either way.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 14, 2011, 12:24:53 PM
I would like to show you my first attempt belong to my -self modifying- level idea.
It's just to show- one way- howto possible doing that.

No bots inside, no place to fight inside, it's just a simple cube design which I found helpful to play around with that idea for the first time.
I couldn't test it online so I can't say if it would really work. Maybe someone could help out here? (Willy, maybe with your home net?)

I inserted 4 player starts. Near them there is a simulated reactor (switch)
Every time you use it you should hear a wall fade sound and open 1 of 4 tunnels.
There are 7 x 4 of such 'blocks' through the mine so the way should be a little bit 'random' each time you hit the reactor-switch.
If you fly to the opposite side of that test level you'll find the exit(switch).
Using this one ALL 'blocks' should be away and you can fly back to the 'reactor-switch' (you can without doing that for sure too) and try again.
Not any check if anyone is not at the starting point, all just straight forward to check the 'blocking mechanism.

Let me know if it's working for you and if you could like the idea in general.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 14, 2011, 01:31:39 PM
I've only got one machine set up with D3 right now,  but I tried your level and it seems the walls open and close at random?

I think the idea of a variable sized level is good. For anarchy, it sucks to to have to search a huge level for one other player.  But that is a level with no story-line, if you have a level that is meant for singleplayer but you are playing in co-op, it still has a story line and would not make sense section off part of the story.  Just like a book, you can't just remove chapters at random to make it shorter, it needs to be re-written.

For anarchy, or other multiplayer gametypes except co-op, it could be very useful to reduce the size of the level when there are few players.  And open it up when there are a large number of players.  So these are the issues I see for such a level: First, what happens to players who are in the large section, if the level gets smaller?  I can see three solutions.
1) They could be teleported to somewhere inside the reduced level. There could be some logistics issues with teleporting a number of players at once, and they may become disorientated.
2) They are allowed to find their own way back and pass through one-sided faces to become trapped in the smaller level once they get there.  Some players may stay in the large section with this solution. (think Goerdon ;) )
3) Make the large section unlivable.  A large face of magma could rise up closing off the bottom areas of the level, forcing players to fly up towards the higher areas.
Of course, with any of these all spawn points would have to be in the smallest area.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 14, 2011, 04:11:22 PM
I'd like to see the level too, Atan :D

@WillyP: Well, we might still use the spawn points throughout the entire level, and enable/disable them as players connect and leave, and areas got opened and closed?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 14, 2011, 04:54:05 PM


I'd like to see the level too, Atan :D
Well, since he attached it to his post I guess that means you can.
@WillyP: Well, we might still use the spawn points throughout the entire level, and enable/disable them as players connect and leave, and areas got opened and closed?
If you can turn on and off spawn points that would work.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on February 14, 2011, 05:09:09 PM
Option #2 wouldn't be bad; even if players decided to stay in the large sealed off areas, they would be by themselves until they decided to rejoin the group.  There's really no harm leaving them in there by themselves, unless they decided to take advantage of the one-sided face...

Another thing you could do is totally block off the room and place a manual teleporter in it that only activates when it's sealed off.  That way stubborn players are out kept out of the way, with the less-jarring option of teleporting back manually.

Atan: the concept worked perfectly here.  The fake walls are sticky, though, and prohibit weapon spawns; I'm not sure if that would be a problem or not.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 15, 2011, 07:44:09 AM
Thx for testing the idea.
I build this one for try out my idea only.
Sure it can't be used inside big levels everywhere.
Because it's used at level start only, there would be no need to check for players.
What you see inside this test level is just to check out variations. In 'real' all would be come to end if the Reactor is destroyed.
Those who can escape would earn points, others die inside the mine..

Who might think over how I did this..
It's done with an object which I placed inside the level at several places and ghost them randomly (script) in the game by using the switch. That's all.
Next time I will take something other than objects to block.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: VANGUARD on February 15, 2011, 12:14:17 PM
What are some of those types of gameplay anyway?  I don't know some, some I do. having it listed "may" help some direct this game in the right direction. I'm "sort of" helping by listing them. If anyone can answer the ones I don't know, I'd appreciate it.

Singleplayer - Easy, you just play a map all by your self
Co-op - Now you can play a map with players and kill off those bots, and reach to the exit
Anarchy - Free for all
CTF - Two teams, one has to capture the other teams flag
Entropy - ?
Instareap - ?
Frag-tag - ? Firing a frag kills them?
Gaurdian - ? I'm assuming you're guarding something  ;D
Assault - ? Assault people?
Break-out - ? Is this like the atari 5200 Breakout? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Breakout#Super_Breakout
Monsterball - Good old soccer! two teams, one big monsterball. must hit into the goal.
Team anarchy - free for all, but split up into teams
Team instareap - ?
Hyper anarchy - ? you move really fast?
Team hoard - ? two teams hoards the chips?
Pyromania - ? fire?
Inferno - ? more fire?
Robo-anarchy - ? assuming free for all, kill humans and robots.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on February 15, 2011, 12:53:50 PM
What are some of those types of gameplay anyway?  I don't know some, some I do.

Just to clear this up for folks who don't know.

Entropy - Two-team.  Complex gameply involving getting successive kills so you can pick up 'virus' objects and capture enemy rooms.

Instareap / Team instareap - Everyone gets only the MD, which is enough to kill in one shot.

Frag-tag - Sort of "tag you're it", using frag missile pieces.

Gaurdian - Another complex two-team gametype involving rooms which give certain powerups.

Assault - Two teams, goal is to destroy all objects in the opponent's base.

BreakOut - [I created this one, Van. ;)]  Two-team, goal is to kill/capture all opponents, but you can free your own teammates.

Hyper anarchy - Anarchy but with a "bonus orb" which gives extra points if you hold it and make kills.

Team hoard - Collect orbs from killed players and score in marked rooms.

Pyromania - Big mod involving a number of new ships and weapons.


Now, none of the above really fit some of the ideas which have been posted.  As I offered before: If needed, I can create a custom .d3m (custom gametype) for this.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 15, 2011, 01:29:10 PM
Thx for testing the idea.
I build this one for try out my idea only.
Sure it can't be used inside big levels everywhere.
Because it's used at level start only, there would be no need to check for players.
What you see inside this test level is just to check out variations. In 'real' all would be come to end if the Reactor is destroyed.
Those who can escape would earn points, others die inside the mine..

Who might think over how I did this..
It's done with an object which I placed inside the level at several places and ghost them randomly (script) in the game by using the switch. That's all.
Next time I will take something other than objects to block.

Well, I am very confused now.  I tested your level just by myself.  And I hit the swiches and flew from end to end. The I put a marker on two of the walls and when I hit the first switch, they open and close.  But you say only at level start... How would that help with making a level adjust to size according to number of players?  Or is there some other goal of your test I did not see?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: VANGUARD on February 15, 2011, 02:06:03 PM
ah, assault. I remember playing that type online. it was, some space like map with two ships. It was mostly the CTF style. It had that mega bomb as being green or, maybe that was the black shark.
that was fun.

Breakout sounds fun if you get free soon, boring if not. unless you do other things in the mean time.

and I did play some orb game thing once, and I think even the MD one as well.

thanks for the info. I'm assuming I got mine right. most I knew, one or two I wasn't sure.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: VANGUARD on February 15, 2011, 02:17:10 PM
I read some ideas, thinking some of my own. I think overall, it may be a blend of what some have suggested.
This idea is like "Five" on Black Ops: Zombies.

The idea of three sections I think would be nice. Like "five", you have the tables and chairs, hall ways, places blocked off. second section is "war room", third is "labs".
not saying we do that for this, but like what was originally talked about.
Having three sections. defeat one, move to the second. Of course, in "Five", you can go back to any area you've already been in.

Sort of in a nutshell:

1. Spawn in a room where you can get powerups. This could be separated by each pilot or team.
2. Leave room (can't return) and begin the 1st of 3 stages. Be nice if each one had something slgihtly different, like "Five". The decor, layout, etc are different in "Five".

I suppose a team like game would be hard though. Okay, why I just thought of this, I don't know. but I did, and I'm going to tel you guys even if this is not possible, and even STUPID.

Have two teams, two maps, both basically the same. and see how fast the team can get to the end and win basically. They may have to trigger something to activate something else, etc..
May not work as well when you keep playing the game, and get use to it more. maybe add robots.
It's probably DUMB, I don't know. I am just throwing out what I can. I wish I could help on a map, or music, or new decal, but I am so horrible with that.
I'm impressed with my avatar, that should tell you how bad I am with making music or decal, etc..
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 15, 2011, 04:58:08 PM
Hey, don't be so hard on yourself, it's as good of an idea as any!  (except mine, of course... ;) )

Anyway, let's organize our ideas into possible game scenarios, however rough they may be.  Then we can vote on a game-plan instead of a game-type.  Since Single-player is still in the lead in the poll, I would assume some have some ideas for Single player.  Name you ideas, and explain them in one post, so I can make a poll that has each one listed by name, maybe a link to the post.

Note: does not have to be your original idea, but maybe your variation of some other idea, etc...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 16, 2011, 07:10:25 AM
I only really ever suggested one level idea, so I'll just repost what I said before.

Quote from: Myself
But there is one in particular I'd love to do.

See, I was replaying D1 level 13 not that long ago, and I just randomly got to thinking about how it'd be cool to rebuild the level in D3, but it had been left in ruins after it's reactor had blown. Kind of like that brief spot in D3 lvl 10 (?) that briefly showed D1 lvl 1's ruins, but bigger, showing more of the level in navigable ruins. Shortly thereafter I got the idea that maybe the virus had reinfected the mine for reasons unknown and hotwired a replacement reactor (I'm guessing the bots built it from scratch) in to power as much of the mine's ruins as possible, to possibly start rebuilding it, but their way, possibly creating structures reminiscent of D3 Merc Lvl 4, maybe even complete with some of those hive bots. I'd personally think this would be cool, because you'd be going down these ruined tunnels of an old D1 mine (which is cool in of itself), then suddenly turn right and BAM! Suddenly you find yourself in the middle of Merc. Lvl 4. Cool

More details on demand, if anybody's interested.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 16, 2011, 08:14:13 AM
If it's going to be singleplayer I can easily contribute some high quality osf music to make it less monotonous ;).
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 16, 2011, 08:53:43 AM
@Vanguard: Yeah, relax, its good to have opinions... Just focus on what you really want, tell it to us, so we can ALL discuss it here. This is how something with QUALITY gets designed first, via brainstorming!

About your idea, you just have to write it a little more, say, open?

Well, for Singleplayer, here is my oldest offering:
...The player (OR group of players) gets stuck down in an unexplored cavern system, after a teleporter failure took the transporter offline and damaged their ship's systems. Their objective is simply to repair the teleporter system, by searching for resources in the tunnels and get the hell out of there before their oxygen runs out... And they would have to fight a horde of bots and environmental hazards along the way...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 16, 2011, 09:46:56 AM
@Willy
Quote
Well, I am very confused now.  I tested your level just by myself.  And I hit the swiches and flew from end to end. The I put a marker on two of the walls and when I hit the first switch, they open and close.  But you say only at level start... How would that help with making a level adjust to size according to number of players?  Or is there some other goal of your test I did not see?

Well I hope I can say it a little better this time.
I had the idea about a level-type which would not be the same every time you start it. (would fit best to Anarchy, but will do in SP too)
In a real game you could start at the moment a reactor (or similar) is destroyed, all should hurry to the exit and leave. Nice fights if only the first one could escape and earn points for this.
But if you would have played such kind of level often, well, every body would know the way to fly out.
Now the idea behind: I thought it would be nice if no one would know how he should move trough the level to leave 'this! time'.
To check this out I made this test-level and I thought it would be a good idea to simulate the moving without ending the level and to start again always.
With the start-key you produce a random way, you simulate the moment this event should begin with it. It could be the level start or whenever it would be triggered.
Now You can try to fly to the end-switch, which just a test to open all ways again. This switch is only a placeholder for a possible exit, no real meaning in this level.
If you fly to start now, you can produce a new way towards the end again.
You possible may just hit that 'start-key' again and again an look which block opens..
All inside this level is just done for  test proposes.
There is nothing real usable in this level, it's just a simulation to see how it could work to randomly changing the path to the exit.
Sorry if I confused you with this!
 
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on February 16, 2011, 09:49:02 AM
... randomly changing the path to the exit.

^^^^

THIS!!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 16, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
Gotcha!  Cool idea!  I guess I just had stuck in my head the idea of reducing level size when there are few players.  So you could have multiple choices of paths, intertwined together, to end up with one path of hundreds possible.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 16, 2011, 11:30:25 AM
Sounds like the Left 4 Dead 2's levels...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: VANGUARD on February 16, 2011, 12:14:52 PM
Hey, don't be so hard on yourself

sorry. someone is giving me a hard time, and it stuck on me.

Something unique would be nice. There are some shows on TV,or was on TV that did something risky. One is Home Improvement. They took a chance on an episode that Randy may have some sort of cancer, if memory serves. They weren't sure if people would hate it, because it's a serious topic, or not.

it turned out to be well liked. and I think that happens a bit in some shows. You take something unique, hopefully do it well, and it can be a popular show, or in this case, a level/map.

That's all I can say for now, should get back to work.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 17, 2011, 07:37:30 AM
Quote
Sounds like the Left 4 Dead 2's levels...
Sorry? Could you please explain, that says nothing to me.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 17, 2011, 08:06:06 AM
:D

The Left 4 Dead 2 has a similar feature that allowed its levels to have changing layout-minimal changes in placement of static object(s) that gave parts of the level to have different layouts each time the map is loaded-like opening a particular door or not. Plus, the same "randomization" goes for weapon caches, ammo crates and zombie hordes/tanks...

An example from L4D2: There is a "graveyard" arena where the path of the players are shaped mostly with gravestones, Mausoleums and etc. The game's engine simply changes some of the object's "ghosting", and changes the path randomly each time... That was what they said at the development commentary...

Your level featured those opening/closing portals that reminded me of this :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: TechPro on February 17, 2011, 08:13:34 AM
Hey, I got an idea.... (it's rare, but it happens)

If we can make use of the random changing path approach, we could make a level (for SP of MP usage) where there is a central room with passages to an outer area (perhaps and area up and an area down, or a multiple combination) and because of the randomly changing path you (the pilot) can never be completely sure of the path you need to take ... because it keeps changing.

A multi-player level like that would be awesome fun because as you run to or from your goal, your path is going to change without you knowing the precise change.  You get be running with your enemy in hot pursuit, turn a corner to find that path is blocked, or your enemy thinks he's got your cornered, and surprise! A way is clear....

On DescenBB.net, "sdfgeoff" posted some Pyro renderings, and among the renderings he made a rendering of the Star trek: Deep Space Nine (http://www.tv.com/star-trek-deep-space-nine/show/166/summary.html) space station with a Pyro approaching it. Click here to see his post with the image. (http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?p=279145#p279145) ... It occurs to me that a level shape similar to that station would work VERY well for that kind of game play.

It sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 17, 2011, 04:37:26 PM
Now, if you really want to mess with people who use auto leveling, build that level at about a 30 deg angle from plumb... ;)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on February 18, 2011, 08:26:58 AM
Now, if you really want to mess with people who use auto leveling, build that level at about a 30 deg angle from plumb... ;)

I thought auto-levelling just levels the ship to the closest wall, not the absolute XY plane.  (I haven't used it in over 15 years, though, so my memory may be failing me.  :P )

The effect is still acheivable, though.  Check out the D3 level, "Three Sisters" (it's in the Mano-a-Mano pack, I think), or "TetraFusion".  Both those levels apply unusual conventions by making the various sections of the level at odd angles to each other.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 18, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
Well, people are we going to do something yet? My school is starting, and it will get steamed in a few weeks. I'd like to know if there will be any action, so I can adjust my timetable...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 18, 2011, 04:58:02 PM
Ok, let's see what I can figure out for the next poll... Electricity is flickering so I might not get to this tonight.

Scyphi's Idea
See, I was replaying D1 level 13 not that long ago, and I just randomly got to thinking about how it'd be cool to rebuild the level in D3, but it had been left in ruins after it's reactor had blown. Kind of like that brief spot in D3 lvl 10 (?) that briefly showed D1 lvl 1's ruins, but bigger, showing more of the level in navigable ruins. Shortly thereafter I got the idea that maybe the virus had reinfected the mine for reasons unknown and hotwired a replacement reactor (I'm guessing the bots built it from scratch) in to power as much of the mine's ruins as possible, to possibly start rebuilding it, but their way, possibly creating structures reminiscent of D3 Merc Lvl 4, maybe even complete with some of those hive bots. I'd personally think this would be cool, because you'd be going down these ruined tunnels of an old D1 mine (which is cool in of itself), then suddenly turn right and BAM! Suddenly you find yourself in the middle of Merc. Lvl 4. Cool

More details on demand, if anybody's interested.

Schyphi's Other Idea:
You know what I always wanted to? Build a level that starts you at one end of it with the goal to escape, but as you go along, the level is slowly filling up with lava (like the lava pits in Dravis's Sanctuary). If you aren't quick enough, you get trapped and die in the flooding lava. :D

Atan's Idea:
Well I hope I can say it a little better this time.
I had the idea about a level-type which would not be the same every time you start it. (would fit best to Anarchy, but will do in SP too)
In a real game you could start at the moment a reactor (or similar) is destroyed, all should hurry to the exit and leave. Nice fights if only the first one could escape and earn points for this.
But if you would have played such kind of level often, well, every body would know the way to fly out.
Now the idea behind: I thought it would be nice if no one would know how he should move trough the level to leave 'this! time'.
To check this out I made this test-level and I thought it would be a good idea to simulate the moving without ending the level and to start again always.
With the start-key you produce a random way, you simulate the moment this event should begin with it. It could be the level start or whenever it would be triggered.
Now You can try to fly to the end-switch, which just a test to open all ways again. This switch is only a placeholder for a possible exit, no real meaning in this level.
If you fly to start now, you can produce a new way towards the end again.
You possible may just hit that 'start-key' again and again an look which block opens..
All inside this level is just done for  test proposes.
There is nothing real usable in this level, it's just a simulation to see how it could work to randomly changing the path to the exit.
Sorry if I confused you with this!
 
Tech Pro's Idea:
Hey, I got an idea.... (it's rare, but it happens)

If we can make use of the random changing path approach, we could make a level (for SP of MP usage) where there is a central room with passages to an outer area (perhaps and area up and an area down, or a multiple combination) and because of the randomly changing path you (the pilot) can never be completely sure of the path you need to take ... because it keeps changing.

A multi-player level like that would be awesome fun because as you run to or from your goal, your path is going to change without you knowing the precise change.  You get be running with your enemy in hot pursuit, turn a corner to find that path is blocked, or your enemy thinks he's got your cornered, and surprise! A way is clear....

On DescenBB.net, "sdfgeoff" posted some Pyro renderings, and among the renderings he made a rendering of the Star trek: Deep Space Nine ([url]http://www.tv.com/star-trek-deep-space-nine/show/166/summary.html[/url]) space station with a Pyro approaching it. Click here to see his post with the image. ([url]http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?p=279145#p279145[/url]) ... It occurs to me that a level shape similar to that station would work VERY well for that kind of game play.

It sounds like a lot of fun to me.

Vanguard's Idea:
I read some ideas, thinking some of my own. I think overall, it may be a blend of what some have suggested.
This idea is like "Five" on Black Ops: Zombies.

The idea of three sections I think would be nice. Like "five", you have the tables and chairs, hall ways, places blocked off. second section is "war room", third is "labs".
not saying we do that for this, but like what was originally talked about.
Having three sections. defeat one, move to the second. Of course, in "Five", you can go back to any area you've already been in.

Sort of in a nutshell:

1. Spawn in a room where you can get powerups. This could be separated by each pilot or team.
2. Leave room (can't return) and begin the 1st of 3 stages. Be nice if each one had something slgihtly different, like "Five". The decor, layout, etc are different in "Five".

I suppose a team like game would be hard though. Okay, why I just thought of this, I don't know. but I did, and I'm going to tel you guys even if this is not possible, and even STUPID.

Have two teams, two maps, both basically the same. and see how fast the team can get to the end and win basically. They may have to trigger something to activate something else, etc..
May not work as well when you keep playing the game, and get use to it more. maybe add robots.
It's probably DUMB, I don't know. I am just throwing out what I can. I wish I could help on a map, or music, or new decal, but I am so horrible with that.
I'm impressed with my avatar, that should tell you how bad I am with making music or decal, etc..

Babylon's Idea:
It becomes more of an arena-styled multiplayer at that point.  If the level is built like a regular mine would be, it will take too long / be too confusing for players to find one another; even more so when there's not a way to see / track who's carrying what.

That aside, perhaps there could be a time limit until the entire level is destroyed by some cataclysmic event (persay, in five minutes the cavern will flood), and the competition is for an (potentially) infinite supply of something (persay, air capsules).  Robots would still drop mission critical items (e.g. air capsules) at random (the higher the difficulty of bot, the higher the rate/number of drops) and of course you could still plunder other players.  Players would respawn back at the beginning, so as to avoid initial confusion as to who still possesses the mission critical items (e.g. air capsules); the beginning area itself should be inaccessible once left.  When the time limit expires the level ends, and the player with the highest amount of mission critical items (e.g. air capsules) wins.

Alternately, you could work in the exit strategy and have the exit (or safe house) open 60 seconds before the time limit expires and have all robot matcens shut down, leading to some serious last minute brawling...

WillyP's Idea:
I have some ideas for a D3 Multiplayer, robo anarchy that would play kinda like a string of d1/2 levels.  Players would start out at one end of the level and have to fight hoards of bots and turrets, as well as each other, and then destroy a reactor.  This would be in a small section of the level.  Destroying the reactor would open the next section, and fill the first section with a radioactive, toxic fog.  So the players would move from one section to the next, but still respawn in the first.  There would be maybe three sections like this, with the last reactor forcing the player to find an exit, ending the level.

Further clarification:
The way I envisioned it, players would start out in an area, let's call it blue.  All the players spawn in blue.  At the other end of blue, there is a blue reactor. Players fight their way through blue, battling bots and each other for the honor, and maybe some points, of destroying blue reactor.
Once Blue reactor is destroyed, a door to area yellow opens, and blue begins to flood with a blue radioactive fog.  The fog does some damage to any ship in blue area.  So all the players move to yellow, and repeat the scenario with tougher bots and a more well protected reactor.  Players still spawn in blue area, and must move quickly to yellow.

After the yellow reactor succumbs, again the area is flooded with radio active fog, this time yellow, a door opens and now players move to red area.  Players still re-spawn in blue area and must now battle through blue area and yellow area to rejoin the battle.

Conquering the red reactor opens an emergency escape route, a red fog forms, and the players fight to escape and the level ends.

I don't believe my idea needs any mod other than robo-anarchy.  It only needs to trigger doors, fog and room-damage when a reactor is blown, and end the level when a player reaches the end of the escape tunnel.  I believe that is all doable in any gametype.  But I could be wrong.

The damage done in each area would be slight, just enough to encourage players to move along.  Presumably most of the bots would be destroyed by then anyway.  But maybe spawn points could be turned on for only the area currently at play, not sure about that.

Shroudeye's Idea, named 'Our Game':
Also, if you like, I came up with an idea of a sorts after watching the movie "Sanctum", that may be interesting... Here it goes:

The player (OR group of players) gets stuck down in an unexplored cavern system, after a teleporter failure took the transporter offline and damaged their ship's systems. Their objective is simply to repair the teleporter system, by searching for resources in the tunnels and get the hell out of there before their oxygen runs out... And they would have to fight a horde of bots and environmental hazards along the way...

I was preparing to test this, but I'd like to hear your comments as well...

Further:
Okay, there is our game, finalized:

-Players are TRAPPED in the cavern system. Only way out is the teleporter, which activates with a substance.
-The substance is highly volatile, which means activating the teleporter will trigger a massive meltdown that will destroy the entire cavern system.
-There are bots present, which extract the substance for themselves they are not happy by the presence of the players.
-There is just enough substance for ONE ship. Who goes FIRST, is the LAST.

Looks like a hectic "Power Struggle"?

By the way, I'm calling this "our game", cuz as I read, anyone on this site can participate in the project?

And more further:
I was thinking that those substances can be picked up like powerups... but your idea about getting them from the bots sounds better, so we got our source.

About the "hiding" players with powerups... well, we said that the substance is "highly volatile", so the player who got substance on board can take some damage... and the more substance the player has/the more it damages. An alternative to this, the substance can simply evaporate over time instead of damaging (May be better for a little less hectic game for new ones). So if the player waits too long he/she loses valuable resources or gets destroyed...

Lastly, what happens if a player destroys a "carrier": The substance can simply be destroyed (again its "volatile" nature helps), so the players must go hunting for substance... That also means that there are a "lot" more substance instead of "just enough"... Well, that is an easy change, as the teleporter gets destroyed with a huge blast that devours all the players except the "Survivor"!

One thing remains then... what happens if two players with sufficient substance (8 units or not, it depends on the map's size) teleports at the same time?

A. It can be allowed so players win the game "tied"
or
B. The maximum "alive" bots for an instance which carries the substance can be limited, so having 2 or more players carrying it becomes a little difficult...

And there are some screen shots here:http://www.planetdescent.net/index.php?topic=639.msg8304#msg8304 ([url]http://www.planetdescent.net/index.php?topic=639.msg8304#msg8304[/url])

WillyP's Other Idea, Named 'TITANIUM':
The idea of zoned playing, as you call it, when applied to SP is not much different from the standard get the keys blow he reactor formula.  I like your idea of having to find parts to repair something.  The twist is having the timer run from level-start.  Perhaps the parts location could somehow be randomized, that might extend the replay value a bit.

Anyway, here is another idea for a multiplayer level, I started on this years ago and couldn't get the script to work correctly: TITANIUM ([url]http://www.prepare4descent.net/d3/d3mp/ti.html[/url]).  Unfortunately this game would pretty much require a large number of players in the game to be effective.  I'm thinking at least 5 on each team.

From TITANIUM:
Following a suggestion made by Enzo 03 in a post on PD, Titanium has reactors that must be enabled to win the game. I decided on seven reactors for each team, two teams. To enable a reactor, a player must find a Reactor Fuse and insert it into a fuse holder located in his team's base.
  Ten fuses will be located in the level. When your ship contacts a fuse, it will attach to the rear of your ship. Another player may steal the fuse from you by contacting the fuse you are carrying. If your ship is destroyed, the fuse will break free and float freely until another player picks it up. The fuse is a non-destructible object, but can be knocked about by weapons, unless it is attached to a ship or fuse holder.
  If you make it back to your base with the fuse, place it in the fuse holder to bring one reactor online.
  Once a fuse is placed in a fuse holder, it could be stolen by another player. You will have to defend your fuses!
  When all seven of one teams reactors have been activated, a timer will start. All seven reactors must remain operational during this time to win the game!

Now, it also has occurred to me this game could also be done in Robo-Titanium, by having the keys carried by robots.  This would give some challenge to players who are in the level alone, either online or singleplayer, or with just a few players present.


Ok, is that it?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 19, 2011, 01:52:22 AM
Sorry, I think it's too early to count in my idea for now.
I'm currently building a new test level without using objects to block the way(s) and I do not know if that will work as I want it later.






 
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 19, 2011, 07:57:46 AM
Quote from: WillyP
Ok, is that it?

Well, unless you've decided not to present it as an idea after all, I do believe you forgot your own idea that got the thread going in the first place. :P
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 19, 2011, 03:40:14 PM
Also, you haven't added my idea there??
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 20, 2011, 06:42:38 AM
Ok, I'll add some more.  I'm going to keep them in the one post to keep them organized.  If I haven't added yours by the end of the day, please post a link to the post where you outlined you idea.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 20, 2011, 07:00:46 AM
Better yet, here is my original SP idea, posted Feb. 10 2011:

...The player (OR group of players) gets stuck down in an unexplored cavern system, after a teleporter failure took the transporter offline and damaged their ship's systems. Their objective is simply to repair the teleporter system, by searching for resources in the tunnels and get the hell out of there before their oxygen runs out... And they would have to fight a horde of bots and environmental hazards along the way...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 20, 2011, 07:13:16 AM
Your is now added, Shroudeye.  I am still going back over the thread to see what ideas have been posted.  But a lot of the ideas presented by one member are the added and expanded on by other members, so I am just trying to get the basic ideas.  Atan, I'll leave your idea in for now, we can always take it out later if it doesn't work. 

Also if anybody feels a variation on Idea should be posted, speak up, we can call it like 'Someone's Variation of Somebody's Idea'.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 22, 2011, 04:39:12 AM
I'm kinda picturing Scyphi's idea like this:  You start in the classic D1 level 1, but it is obviously wrecked.  As you progress the level, you notice an alien presence... subtle at first, but grows more obvious as you go.  Kinda like in the movie 'Aliens'.  Creepy!  And kinda dark, because the mines lights are all destroyed, but not too dark, cause totally dark levels suck. Maybe the alien infestation has some glowing crystals or something. There aren't any keys, the doors are all blown apart. Then you get to where the reactor should be and there is a hole in the floor, or wall, or maybe both, and you go through.  Beyond there is alien construction.  You negotiate your way through the Alien part of the mine to the reactor, which you find is built from pieces of broken bots and other equipment the aliens had salvaged from the old mine.

We could incorporate some of Atan's idea of the changing path through the mine, too, as the alien infection could be somewhat organic in nature, and be moving and changing as the game progresses.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 22, 2011, 07:00:26 AM
Does it have to be the Lunar Outpost? I think the D1 L1 is way overused already. I was wandering thru those old D1 levels, and some of them are REALLY dark and creepy...

Schypi's offer, the Level 13 for example, is a good, vertical level...

I'm also against "totally dark" levels, the lights&shadows are what gives a level its character, after all... And playing a level which is just "dark" is just a "little" different from playing in an unprocessed, test level without lightmaps, IMO.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 22, 2011, 08:18:47 AM
No, an unproccesed level without lightmaps is full bright.  You can see everything, in a fully dark level you can't see anything.

It's one thing to pass through a few areas which are extremely dark, it's another to play a whole level in total darkness, is my point.  But without lightmaps, there is no darkness at all.

But that just gave me another idea... Thinking about Atans idea of changing the level... I wonder if there is any possibility of selecting lightmaps at level start?  What if the one path for the player was lit, other paths would be fully dark?  Well, just a thought, anyway.  Well, there is some manipulation of lighting through DALLAS, though I haven't played with it enough to know if you could guide the player on certain paths by using light/ dark areas. Interesting thought, don't you think?  Instead of completly barring a player from exploring other paths by use of a face or locked door, discourage him by making one path so dark it would be difficult to proceed, while lighting other paths.  And choose different paths at random on level-start.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 22, 2011, 09:39:16 AM
No, an unproccesed level without lightmaps is full bright.  You can see everything, in a fully dark level you can't see anything.

I know that WillyP :D. My point is, they BOTH look "simple", in a bad way, at least TO ME... they appear like the designer simply didn't gave enough time and patience to the lights of the level in their design process...

...Instead of completly barring a player from exploring other paths by use of a face or locked door, discourage him by making one path so dark it would be difficult to proceed, while lighting other paths...

Well, sounds fine, but the player is equipped with a headlight already for that, it won't be as hard...unless modding the headlight itself????*cough*

On the other hand, I'm not that far at Dallas, but if it is possible to create "delta lights" like in D2, it would be awesome by itself...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 22, 2011, 09:56:19 AM
You mean flickering lights?  Yes that is possible, even I've done it (several times, and I've only ever finished 3 levels for D3).
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 22, 2011, 11:19:43 AM
Yeah, I'm with Shroudeye, I don't think D1 lvl1 is a good idea, because A: it's been done before, and B: it's too small. You'd only get to explore a small portion of the ruined mine. The rest would be of alien construction, and then it'd be unbalanced between the two themes. The reason I picked lvl 13 is because it's one of my favorites, and because I felt it'd work great for this.

Also, absolutely no to the totally-dark/unprocessed lighting. It just doesn't work like you'd think it would in D3, and just comes across as annoying. This idea has the potential of some really cool lighting.

Yes to the flickering lights, please. :D

Seeing that this idea is in the lead for the moment, I'll provide some of those more "details on demand." See, the way I was picturing it was that the story behind it is that after the events of D3, the CED and all of them are going out cleaning up after the PTMC and the virus, clearing out the infected mines with a tweaked anti-virus Red Acropolis put together, and along the way, discover that this one particular mine had, for reasons unknown, been reactivated and infected robot activity could be detected within, and the anti-virus, also for reasons unknown, wasn't working. It seemed the mine had been reinfected with a new strain of the virus, one different from the modified one Dravis had harnessed. So it is decided this particular mine is just going to have to be taken care of the ol' fashioned way, by sending someone in there and destroy the apparently rebuilt or reactivated (in the briefing you're given, it's unclear which) reactor, hopefully taking the mine and all within with it. I was thinking of having Red Acropolis be the ones supporting this mission, with the CED being busy with other affairs, but I suppose that's not a must.

Anyway, I was picturing the level starting out with you on the surface, and having to clear out a few infected robot defenses, as well as a robot matcen located on the surface that you use a bomb to destroy (or deactivate, whichever is more practical) before you can actually enter the mine via the original entrance. Now, up until now, you've only been given vague clues as to what mine this is, hopefully to not give the player any real confirmation of what d1 level it's supposed to be...until you actually enter the mine. Inside, the mine is surprisingly intact (I estimate roughly half. The rest was either incinerated in the original blast, caved in, or as we soon discover, rebuilt in completely different design) but definitely seen better days. Some doors work, while others do not. The usual locked doors are there along with their keys, but it is not imparative that you even use these doors, as you'll later discover ways around them. There is power in the mine, and thereby lights, but it's very limited to the ruined portions of the mine, and all of the original energy centers are flickering, non-functioning, wreaks. Any of the level's original robot generators are larger and "overrun" with robots. Robots are composed of both beat and battered D1 robots and newer, more functional D3 robots, at least until you enter the newer alien portions.

Speaking of which, these portions are sealed off behind an oddly locked door that wasn't locked in the original level. You have to find a means of unlocking it to continue. Once through the door it's an abrupt transition from that mine into, and I absolutely must insist upon this, a very D3 Merc lvl 4 alien environment. It mirrors it in many ways, but we can take that theme and improve upon it. It'll be composed of those alien robots from the same level, but again, improvements can be made, especially seeing that said level is not always a favorite. I just insist on the theme, and thus the tie to the level, be preserved. Now these tunnels  go whether the old mine no longer can. Occasionally, it'll lead to surviving portions of the mine that have since been cut off from access that you can poke around in, maybe find powerups and the such.

What are the aliens up to? Well, that's a matter that can be determined along the way. I was personally thinking that maybe they were secretly building a big boss robot (maybe like the one in D2 lvl 24?) that isn't functional yet, but would be soon, thus providing even more cause to blow the mine. But that's just my idea, I suppose that detail is not set in stone.

Now, as already stated, the ultimate objective is to destroy the revived reactor, which is located in the original, but very blasted and scorched reactor room of the level, with a new, D1 style, reactor (but as WillyP suggested before, it could be modified slightly to have a bit more "teeth") But when you enter the room, the reactor is sealed behind a forcefield, and you have to combat an alien queen robot (again, similar to D3 Merc lvl 4 alien queen, but modifications can be made if so wanted) at least until the robot is damaged enough that it goes to recharge. In doing so, the power drain lowers the reactor's forcefield, exposing it for attack, and attack you do, until the alien queen's recharged and the forcefield goes back up and the process is repeated. This goes back and forth several times until you blow the reactor, and that causes the self-destruct to kick in and blow the mine, and you escape.

A fun idea I had at this point is that when the reactor's blown, the classic "self-destruct sequence activated" alarms are activated...except they're bugged; the computer's voice is distorted, and maybe the countdown counter is busted and non-operational (giving you no real idea how much time you have left). 8)

Now that I've said all of that, seeing some of these other ideas that had popped up, I think we can merge some of them with this. Like Atan's changing paths idea for the alien areas, and maybe instead of an exit tunnel, we use a teleporter instead, playing into Shroudeye's idea, and so forth, so there is some flexibility in this idea.

And sorry if I seem adamant about how this idea, if it's done, be done, but I just have a very vivid image in my head of how it should look, and I don't want to bend and change it too much, as it feels like a betrayal to the idea. Hopefully you all understand this. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 22, 2011, 12:12:03 PM
Actually, I was referring to breakable lights and lights that change color; not flickering/strobing ones :D
And of course, we gonna use them :D:D

@Schypi:
I'd say, you got a solid idea... good writing. Now, how about some sketches? :D

I have a small offer for the start, a minor suggestion if you like... What if we tell the player that only a "new strain of virus" have been detected at a region of Europa, and tell the player to go and find the source? The mission starts as a recon mission, where the player is forced to engage infected bots... Soon after a few skirmishes, the player detects that the infected robots are concentrated near a wreckage of sorts, which appears to be an old docking port... that turns out to be leading into the good ol' Europa Mining Colony!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 22, 2011, 01:02:52 PM
Scyphi, you have given a very thorough description of you idea, thank you!  Personally I wouldn't change a thing, but of course as we proceed others may put forth some ideas and even request a vote on some things. Anyone care to sketch this out? Although there is still some time on this vote, I think it would be worthwhile to see some sketches.

Lights can flicker in D3, and you IIRC you can turn off the lights for a room in D3 also.  But when you turn off the lights, it turns off all the lighting in the room, there is no light blending or spillover from other rooms.  So, turning off the lights in one room has to be done carefully, or you do get an odd effect.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Pumo on February 22, 2011, 09:11:59 PM
 :o
Scyphi's idea is even better now that's more well explained!
(and I voted already for one of his ideas ;) ).

Definitely Ifully  support his idea and hope to see it on an actual level.

Now regarding the project itself, I support it but I think I wouldn't have the time to make something for it. I'm barely making time to advance on Pumo Mines making, so...

However, If at any time you want some music for the level, I might do something. Just you decide. :)

Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 22, 2011, 09:59:22 PM
Yes I like that idea too.

And Pumo, for music you mean like a trance remix of Game13?  That would be awesome!  I so want to hear that song remixed.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 23, 2011, 04:45:14 AM
Well, I'd think a more "spooky" mix for a level that dark... But of course, we better ask Schypi...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 23, 2011, 06:32:06 AM
Now regarding the project itself, I support it but I think I wouldn't have the time to make something for it. I'm barely making time to advance on Pumo Mines making, so...

I hope you can at least find the time to pop in and vote on whatever the question of the moment is!  :D

Anyway, even though we won't know for certain until March 02, I think we should move forward on Scy's Idea.  Someone suggested drawings, any other ideas about what the next step should be?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 23, 2011, 07:20:33 AM
For the music, I was thinking a remix of the level 13 music that starts out calm, soft, and eerie, but slowly builds over time to be more and more dramatic. As for style, I'm not too picky. So long as it's fitting and Descent-ish, and that's pretty much a gimme. :P

Quote from: WillyP
Personally I wouldn't change a thing, but of course as we proceed others may put forth some ideas and even request a vote on some things.

Understood, I am of course open to suggestions, I just wanted it to be clear that there could be an idea or two I'd be hesitant to...bend...on. Depends on the idea.

Quote from: Shroudeye
I have a small offer for the start, a minor suggestion if you like... What if we tell the player that only a "new strain of virus" have been detected at a region of Europa, and tell the player to go and find the source? The mission starts as a recon mission, where the player is forced to engage infected bots... Soon after a few skirmishes, the player detects that the infected robots are concentrated near a wreckage of sorts, which appears to be an old docking port... that turns out to be leading into the good ol' Europa Mining Colony!

I was already envisioning something like this, except the briefing goes as far to state that there IS a mine that needs clearing, it just doesn't tell you WHICH mine. ;)

Quote from: WillyP
Anyone care to sketch this out?

Seeing this is my idea, I'd be more than willing to whip up some sketches, to show what I have in mind for this. :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 24, 2011, 07:03:56 AM
Since we are planning to incorporate an existing level, start with a screenie of the level. I am trying to remember 13, but drawing a blank, it has been a long time since I have played it.


I believe Scy suggested level 13. If nobody objects to using 13, we can go with that.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: (LL)Atan on February 24, 2011, 08:18:10 AM
Quote
you can turn off the lights for a room in D3 also
I don't think so. You may turn off light from objects, but you can't turn off light in Rooms complete, if any.
Flickering, Pulsing are possible, yes.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 24, 2011, 12:23:38 PM
Well, I myself had picked some shots of level 13 in D2X-XL, but they are all distorted and grayed out, reasons unknown...

I've taken the liberty to convert the level structure to *.orf format... I've added the preliminary version of the orf to the post, check it out...

NOTICE: The ORF does NOT contain the correct textures, it is just a 3D MASS model for sketching!!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Pumo on February 24, 2011, 01:58:05 PM
I hope you can at least find the time to pop in and vote on whatever the question of the moment is!  :D

...

Yeap, I've done already that since the start of this topic. ;)
--
Regarding the music, if I made it, then I will take both suggestions:
A calm and eerie start with a trance-ish progress.

--
And just to help at least a bit, and since shroudeye had problems taking the screenies, then I will put some scenes of the original level today. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 24, 2011, 03:33:05 PM
And a late nighter's suprise for you: The Original Descent-1 "Racklights"!!!

The racklights comes in 2 variants, "Single" and "Quad".

Dimensions for a "Single" variant (LxWxH): 20x4,4x0,2 units.

The "Quad" variant is designed to fit an opening of 20x20 units.

I've presented 4 variants for textures, each of them are stock D3 textures.

I thought we might use these in our project...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 24, 2011, 04:28:27 PM
Quote
you can turn off the lights for a room in D3 also
I don't think so. You may turn off light from objects, but you can't turn off light in Rooms complete, if any.
Flickering, Pulsing are possible, yes.

There is a check-box in the room propertied dialog labeled 'NoLight' maybe that's what I was thinking of.  I seem to have a foggy recollection of discussing this with you some time ago.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 24, 2011, 04:45:34 PM
Well, I myself had picked some shots of level 13 in D2X-XL, but they are all distorted and grayed out, reasons unknown...

I've taken the liberty to convert the level structure to *.orf format... I've added the preliminary version of the orf to the post, check it out...

NOTICE: The ORF does NOT contain the correct textures, it is just a 3D MASS model for sketching!!

Here are some screenies I took:
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 24, 2011, 04:57:48 PM
Here are the same screenies on lighter background if you want to draw with a pencil.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 25, 2011, 06:23:48 AM
@ Shroudeye: I am so glad to see those lights! It would not be a proper D3-rebuild-of-a-D1-level without those. :D

About the sketches...if I am to do them, it might be a day or two before I present any results, possibly longer (depends on when I can find the free time) so I ask everybody to be patient. I've already reviewed the level myself in-game and in DLE-XP and gotten a bearing of what needs to be where, I just haven't started sketching, so it shouldn't be too long of a wait. :)

Couple of other things I wish to bring up while I'm thinking of them:

1. Are we going to use stock D3 textures for this, or are we going to re-create old D1 textures for D3? It'd be really cool if it could be the latter. :)

2. Earlier I suggested applying Shroudeye's teleporter idea to the level as a means of escape, and that got me thinking. Remember the first D3 secret level ("Origin Zero") that had that eerie green dome thing at the very end that did something to your ship that ended the level, but never revealed what? Well, since unresolved things like this can bug me to no end at times, I've often found myself wondering just what that thing was. My favorite idea is that it's just some kind of alien teleporter, and what it did at the end was just zap your ship out of the level. Assuming this is true, I thought maybe we could re-create that thing to serve as the teleporter for this level, if everybody's for that idea. If so, I know exactly where I'd want to stick it into the level. :)

3. Also, as I was thinking about where some of these new alien tunnels would go, I thought it'd be cool if some of the tunnels led to portions of the old mine that weren't accessible in the original level 13 in D1, like maybe an old computer core room (there has to be one down there somewhere).

Finally, now that I think about it, I did take a screenshot of lvl 13 with some of the cubes marked that I figure were probably destroyed when the first reactor blew. It's actually a much smaller area that is probably logical, but I decided that if I made it much bigger than that, that'd limit the creativity we could have with the original structure, plus some of the best rooms would've been cut out if I expanded the "blast radius" any further. Also, I excluded the reactor room, seeing that SOME part of this would likely need to survive, given the direction the level is to head. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 25, 2011, 10:28:25 AM
Well, I'd say we custom-create a portion of the textures, because D3's own library does not have the correctly coloured textures.

About using a teleporter or an exit door... I'd say that they make not much of a difference, but the RUSH to them, after blowing the core. It depends on what do you want to see at the end, the classic (and maybe a little torn) exit gate of D1-2; or some twisted-alien teleporter...

So, we going to tear apart the core room (which will become the 'Arena' for our boss battle), the Antechamber before the red key, and the hallway that leads to the what I call the "lounge" (Dark room with screens atop a pillar)? I thought of a more severe damage, at least to the lower portion of the mine... But I guess that is why we got our Alien stuff, which had "repaired" those parts of the mine to their fittings... Am I correct?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 25, 2011, 11:14:50 AM
Something like that. I'm still working out the details in my head. Hence why the sketching will be useful, because that'll help sort those things out.

As for the exit, I'm for either idea, so it's really down to what everybody else thinks. For the teleporter idea, I was think there could still be a rush to get there, and maybe also a need to activate it in some way before it can be used.

Personally, logistically thinking, I think the teleporter would work better, because the exit tunnel would be caved in, and have to be cleared before used in some way (and I have a few ideas to cover that should we go in that direction). That, and I would think that the exit tunnel door would already be open (I mean, why would the aliens need to close it?). The teleporter would bypass those thought problems. That, and it would force the player to travel a different route to escape the mine.

But the exit tunnel would work too, and it IS classy...:P
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 26, 2011, 05:45:58 AM
Someone has already remade a large number of the textures, including doors, from D1.  They were posted on the old site and I did grab all of them.  I'll have to look for them in my back-up discs.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 26, 2011, 06:21:48 AM
Hmm, I only ever remember one set like that ever arising, and if it's the textures I'm thinking of WillyP, then they won't work with D3 (too big and too high a resolution). They were instead used for D2X-XL, as it could handle it, assuming you had a powerful enough system to render them in-game.

But if you have some that work with D3, then by all means. :)

PS: first sketches hopefully to appear soon! :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 26, 2011, 07:10:05 AM
Any image that is too big and high resolution can be reduced. I have used them, there are some in ReFactor, IceFactor and some other levels I have made.  I have also made some doors in D3 from the door sets.

Oh, and I just remembered, they were made by Novacron.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 26, 2011, 07:45:56 AM
Yea, I remember them too...

BTW, Speaking of doors, I was preparing the original D1 door found in Level 13... I'm almost done with Modelling&Texture alignment, but I'll need someone to convert it to an *.OOF file-The OOFEditor refuses to work, and I'm not so used to alOOF... So I'll just lend it as *.ORF for conversion...

UPDATE: I've just finished the *.ORF, pictures below...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Pumo on February 26, 2011, 10:18:36 AM
 :o

That's so sweet!
That's an awesome rendition to one of my all time favorite doors from Descent. Great work you did here Shroudeye!  :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 26, 2011, 10:56:47 AM
So, Pumo; can you turn this door to *.OOF? I'm looking someone to do it for me...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on February 26, 2011, 01:34:59 PM
I think we have an oof of this door already in one of the AOH levels (8 sided star I believe).
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: NUMBERZero on February 26, 2011, 06:04:54 PM
I remember the doors from D2 lv 2 in there. And the SFX.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 27, 2011, 05:38:48 AM
@ WillyP: Yep, that's the textures I'm thinking of, and I remember somebody distinctly mentioning that at the presented resolution that they wouldn't work in D3, and nobody really mentioned if it could be fixed. Glad to hear that they're not unusable, though, certainly makes things easier on our part. :)

Though, now that I think about it, we may want to take the time to "rough" up some of those textures in some shape or form to make it more fitting for the beaten, aged, and damaged theme this level would be shooting for.

@ Shroudeye: Beautiful door, me likes! Can't wait to see it animated. :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 27, 2011, 06:15:12 AM
It will be, I just need someone to animate it (See above post of mine, where I posted the pics, for reason why) - I'll send the *.ORF file to anyone interested, just PM me...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on February 27, 2011, 09:53:47 AM
Wish I could do it, but unfortunately, I've never done something like that and wouldn't know where to begin. :-\

But in other news, here's the first sketch I've managed to put together! More to follow soon, hopefully! :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on February 27, 2011, 01:59:20 PM
Good going, Scyphi. I'll examine your sketch in more detail and leave some comments soon...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on February 28, 2011, 07:28:35 AM
I can animate your door and turn it into .oof.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 01, 2011, 04:30:48 AM
Okay, I've sent it to you. Thanks WillyP!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 02, 2011, 03:54:18 PM
I got it just have not had time yet to do it.  Does anyone have a sound for this door?
Title: Wake up call: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 11, 2011, 12:30:47 PM
*Cough* Hey, is there anyone here???
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 11, 2011, 06:04:24 PM
I have tried everything I can think of, cannot get that door working. I've been kinda busy with some work I picked up. Gotta pay the bills, you know.  :-\

Of course, that does not mean someone else can't pick up the ball.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on March 11, 2011, 10:09:42 PM
If you pm me the files, I'm willing to work on it.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Pumo on March 12, 2011, 01:23:33 AM
If you want the sounds for the door, here they are:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/pothc18grv5ayb2/D1door2sounds.zip

I packed, ripped and isolated them from the D2X-XL hi-res D1 sound pack that you can get here: http://www.descent2.de/files/sound/hires-sounds.7z.

Credit for this hi-res version of the sounds goes to Frustikus, of course.  ;)

NOTE: 'door2o.wav' is the sound of the door when it opens and 'door2c.wav' is the sound of it as it closes.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 12, 2011, 04:32:28 PM
Here are the files for the door.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on March 12, 2011, 10:29:10 PM
I checked the rotational flags for every animated piece on each frame which fixed the animation problem; also, I merged the pipes into the door sections themselves, so there's 6 sub-objects instead of 21 (the Fusion Engine tends to get cranky about displaying objects correctly if you go over 20-ish sub-objects).  Everything *should* be resolved now.  :)

Thank you for the sounds, Pumo!  ^^;
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 14, 2011, 08:38:08 AM
Just flew thru it, excellent animation work Bablyon, Pumo and WillyP!

And this low limit of sub-objects... I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 14, 2011, 12:24:56 PM
yeah, I thought it was much higher, like 40 something.  :-\

Just tried it out, looks good!  The sound is nicely coordinated with the motion. Thanks!

I think next lets work on getting the D1 level converted, and divided into rooms. IIRC someone had already converted the level from d1?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 14, 2011, 11:25:49 PM
Yea, I had it... here I'm resending it...

Also I'm sending in the original sketch for the "new" reactor room, and marked zones to be "destroyed", made by Schypi...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 15, 2011, 06:16:42 AM
Speaking of which, I need to get back to that sketching...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 15, 2011, 10:12:47 AM
Speaking of sketches, I've prepared one for our reactor "Mk.Alien", I'll upload it shortly...

EDIT: The sketch is now available, you can view it...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 16, 2011, 04:35:19 AM
Both those drawings are great!  So, we are going to have a reactor room that started out as the standard reactor room, and it is clear been taken over by an organic, alien presence.

No, wait, that isn't quite it, there is a tunnel leading to the alien presence part of the mine. Ok.  So the aliens have been into the mine, and are stealing parts and pieces to build their own reactor, which is semi-organic?  Should there be some recognizable parts of the old reactor missing from the destroyed reactor, to be found later on the alien reactor?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on March 16, 2011, 06:41:49 AM
Merc level 4 hive textures?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Foil on March 16, 2011, 06:56:40 AM
Merc level 4 hive textures?

That's just what I was thinking.  It's starting to sound like it'll have a bit of that same 'feel' (e.g. start out in familiar-looking structures, then it grows increasingly alien as you move into it).
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 16, 2011, 07:58:49 AM
I thought as well, like alien "organisms" took over the remains of this mining colony-that is their way to harvest the materials required to build their "doomsday" weapon (As illustrated in Schypi's idea). They "eat" the mine, Like my "organism" is slowly eating the old reactor itself...

What do you say, Schypi (And all of you, of course)?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 16, 2011, 11:00:17 AM
Hmm, I request that a little bit more of the original reactor still remain, but other than that, I can't see anything I want to object to. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 17, 2011, 12:36:47 PM
if this is the original reactor being taken over i agree. Further into the alien section there could be mechanisms that look less and less like human construction and more alien, as you go deeper.


Merc level 4 hive textures?

That's just what I was thinking.  It's starting to sound like it'll have a bit of that same 'feel' (e.g. start out in familiar-looking structures, then it grows increasingly alien as you move into it).
Exactly, just like in the movie Aliens, when they first go in it looks normal the further they go the less of the station they see, and the more of the organic alien.

Maybe we could make alien enemies that stick to the ceiling like a turret and throw some kind of alien organic substance, like acid, at the player.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on March 17, 2011, 05:20:40 PM
Are we going to rely mostly on D3's native assets to when building, or will we be resorting to custom ones?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 17, 2011, 05:36:27 PM
We will need custom objects, for starters-We already got a door, this alien "core" will be another custom object, as the custom robots... As for the textures, if we are to go "alien", we might consider custom textures as well...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Babylon on March 17, 2011, 06:11:32 PM
To make a starting point, then, I'll make a quick .mn3 of Mercenary's alien textures.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on March 17, 2011, 06:57:06 PM
Maybe we could make alien enemies that stick to the ceiling like a turret and throw some kind of alien organic substance, like acid, at the player.

Lol you just gave me a vivid image of the artificial chaos enemies from Sonic Adventure 2... I don't think that's the art style we want :P.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Alieo on March 17, 2011, 11:29:36 PM
Okay, I just discovered this thread and saw it goes 12 pages... after reading the first page only, I like the idea of doing it in D3 format, having the blue area with blue fog etc... What I may suggest is that the "blue area" be a Lunar Outpost replica. In place of Lunar Outpost's red key is a switch that unlocks the red room, then, you go in and blow the blue reactor which releases blue fog, then you go to the exit, but it's not really the exit, it's just a tunnel that brings you to Lunar Scilab's beginning. Again, have a Lunar Scilab replica with switches in place of access keys, then have the Lunar Scilab reactor be the yellow reactor/yellow fog release, then you proceed to the Lunar Scilab exit which brings you really to Lunar Military Base, the "red" area. Then, you flip the switches (formerly access keys,) and go to the red reactor, and head to Lunar Military Base's exit which leads out outside to the surface of the moon where you battle a boss, then upon the boss blowing up, the level ends and you fly out into space! I see the boss looking like N.Gin from Crash Bandicoot with missiles and possibly a mass driver.

Another idea I've always had was to recreate Lunar Outpost with some parts of the mine not looking "completely" built and modify robot behavior to function as their original intended purpose and use have them mine rocks. However, destroy one and the whole mine's robots ettack you. Your role is basically that of a class 1 supervisor robot; you can go up to robots and issue commands.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Pumo on March 17, 2011, 11:50:18 PM
Well, as Lunar Outpost has already many renditions, it was decided a D1 Level 13 rendition (the sketches and the door is already done) with some alien structures on it (like merc level 4).

So it seems that the base of the project is already decided and going.
However, your idea is not bad as you are suggesting renditions to Lunar Scilab and Military Base, but you see...

Anyway, as it's still a WIP, maybe some of your ideas about the mission dynamics may be added to project. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 18, 2011, 04:04:57 AM
Maybe we could make alien enemies that stick to the ceiling like a turret and throw some kind of alien organic substance, like acid, at the player.

Lol you just gave me a vivid image of the artificial chaos enemies from Sonic Adventure 2... I don't think that's the art style we want :P.

I have no idea what the art style is in sonic 2, but I was thinking of the pods in the Alien movies. Art would of course be of a style to match the rest of the level.

I think we should use existing textures and objects as much as possible.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 18, 2011, 06:27:06 AM
I'm not as picky, I was just thinking of re-using Mercenary's level 4 stuff, as that'd be easier (and faster) than building everything from scratch.

Maybe we could make alien enemies that stick to the ceiling like a turret and throw some kind of alien organic substance, like acid, at the player.

Lol you just gave me a vivid image of the artificial chaos enemies from Sonic Adventure 2... I don't think that's the art style we want :P.

I know what you're talking about there, now I can't shake the same vivid image of that. :P

Quote from: WillyP
I was thinking of the pods in the Alien movies.

Never seen any of the Alien movies, and have no particular want to.

Quote from: Alieo
...after reading the first page only...

Ack! No, bad idea! If you only did that, then you're thinking of WillyP's original idea, (which was still a good idea, by the way) and we've gone in a completely different direction since then. This is PD.net, after all. No one should EVER presume that after twelve pages of comments that we'd still be discussing the same things we were discussing on the first page. It just isn't done. :P
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: VANGUARD on March 18, 2011, 06:46:28 AM
I don't know those sonic games, so I don't know what you're talking about. The classic Sonic games on Sega, yeah, those I know. not any of those "adventure" ones though.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on March 18, 2011, 07:42:42 AM
Well let me give you a vivid image. :D

(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/d/da/ArtChaosSmall.PNG)

They hang down from the ceiling too, but I couldn't find a pic of that.
In Tails' level where you first face them they are incredibly hard.  After that when you face them with Sonic or Knuckles (or Shadow, Rouge or Eggman), though they're not a piece of cake to beat, they're still relatively easy.
They live in infamy in my mind.  (Because I finally got to play the game!)
Incidentally I'm pretty sure this screenshot is Meteor Herd (Knuckles' level), so this would be one of the easy ones.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: VANGUARD on March 18, 2011, 08:56:14 AM
thanks. looks interesting
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 18, 2011, 09:05:35 AM
Maybe we could make alien enemies that stick to the ceiling like a turret and throw some kind of alien organic substance, like acid, at the player.

Anyone played "Alien Territory 2.0" from Shoku (I think) here?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 18, 2011, 11:12:45 AM
Um, no, can't say that I have. Only games I'm really familiar with that we've mentioned here is the Sonic games and of course, Descent. :P
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 18, 2011, 12:50:13 PM
It is a custom-made level for Descent 3, that included... well, aliens!

It can be found in Dateiliste's full D3 pack... Or maybe in some level archive(s)...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on March 18, 2011, 01:35:36 PM
Yes...
I didn't like it very much though.  Roth 513 and Arrilen Po were both much better.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 18, 2011, 05:48:52 PM
Quote from: Shroudeye
It is a custom-made level for Descent 3, that included... well, aliens!

*facepalm* Oh, you meant that! For some stupid reason, I had thought you were referring to some separate game, not a custom level. :P

Yes, I have played Alien Territory before, repeatedly in fact. It's one of my favorites. Although I might have to agree with wazzazzle, Roth 513 was slightly better IMO. I've played Arrilen Po, but not often, partly because I keep forgetting how to get through the puzzles and end up getting stuck. :P

Anyway, back to your original comment, I presume when you mentioned that, you were thinking of the little orb turrets the level included?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: TechPro on March 18, 2011, 06:34:16 PM
I've played Alien Territory too.  It's usually listed in the level archives as "Alien Territory - Final"

You can find it at Descent3fischlein.de (http://d3fischlein.de) but if you don't read German, when you go into the Files section you'll want to select English and then go looking for the level.

You can also find it at Levels4you (http://descent3.levels4you.com/downloads.l4y?review=384&cat=34) but you have to login there in order to get it.

You can find it at DescentValhalla (http://www.descentvalhalla.com).

On the other hand... I've uploaded it here.  http://www.planetdescent.net/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item203
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 19, 2011, 01:41:44 AM
@Schypi: Correct, I was referring to the turrets... Just as an example, ours will be obviously different... or not?

I think some sketching will help on this too :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 24, 2011, 12:35:07 PM
Next sketch! This time of the "lounge" Shoudeye referred to (hence the name "Shoudeye's Lounge", for lack of a better name) a few pages of posts ago. I'm probably the only one who even remembers it. :P

Anyway, there it is. Hopefully more will follow soon, but finals are nearly here, so that could delay things for...I dunno, however long is needed, I suppose.

One point I wish to bring up, though before I get much further with these sketches, and that's whether or not we're going to go for the classic exit tunnel escape or the teleporter-escape, as we're going to have to decide eventually. I, personally, am still leaning towards the teleporter, but I don't have my heart set on it, either, so that's why I want to know, so I can sketch whatever we decide to do. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 27, 2011, 09:34:10 AM
Hey, thanks for the dedication! Sorry I'm writing a little late, I've been thru some exams lately, and couldn't thorougly examine your sketches till now...

Well, my opinions about the sketches:

Schypi, I see that you have put some effort on those rooms. However, it would be better if you introduced those aliens to us first... Who (or what) are they? What are they doing in this old heap of mine? Are they extracting the remains of the mine, or what? And whatever they doing, HOW are they doing that? Please describe them to us, as you are the storyteller here, and you know the aliens better than all of us. Don't try to place them right away, just sketch and describe those aliens.

Now for the sketches in hand: I think they are a bit too focused on the individual rooms, but we don't even know if we are going to use them... As the mine has been destroyed with a powerful nuclear meltdown, a big bunch of the mine would be destroyed-mostly the lower levels... That means we aren't going to model every inch of the mine, but some part of it, probably the parts that are distant to the explosion's origin-the reactor core. I've provided an analysis of the blast, check it out.

Now, you may say that some good rooms of the mine would've been omitted... True, but remember, we are not recreating the level Europa Mining Colony itself, but the ruins of it overrun by alien beings-that means some alien vistas, as well as the ruins, and those two should be balanced!

Well, those are my opinions so far...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 28, 2011, 11:06:36 AM
If I had bigger sheets of paper, I would've tried sketching the whole mine in detail by now. :P

But I actually like it better this way, because then it better supports the group-project idea this is all oriented around. I feel like if I went ahead and sketched every square inch of the mine, that wouldn't leave everybody else much chance to be...creative. I'd much rather do bits and pieces, leaving some areas blank so when people are building the level, they get that chance to be creative as they fill in the blanks. :)

And yes, I've already acknowledged that a bigger blast radius probably would be more realistic, but when I brought it up, everybody seemed okay with that at the time, so I didn't worry much about it until now. Either way, as I already said, some of the best rooms this level has to offer would've been annihilated, and then IMO, it wouldn't be worth it so much to revisit this mine if there's so little of it surviving. I mean, take the recreation of D1 level one in D3's level 10. From a realistic standpoint, that little mine should've been evaporated entirely...but then you wouldn't have anything to go back and revisit. Furthermore, by the fact that so much of it survived could possibly explain why it's still infected. ;) If it makes you feel better, I suppose we can work at coming up with some kind of explanation that explains why so much of it is still fairly intact (definitely not in mint condition though. Damage should be apparent all throughout, including the reactor blast, the aging of the time that has passed, and the aliens messing with it). Maybe the blast somehow got shunted somewhere else, or maybe the infected bots had put up some kind of shielding around the reactor room that somehow spared most of the mine. I dunno.

As for the aliens, I don't think I'm the one who should say so much at this point, because everybody seems to have different ideas about this should go down in that area. For me, I wasn't thinking anything THAT special, I would've just reused the aliens from Merc lvl 4, as that seemed to be the most logical, and furthermore, maintains continuity. But as I've read everybody else's thoughts on the matter, seems pretty clear that not everybody else has been thinking the same thing I have. So until we get that sorted out so that we're all picturing the same thing, I think I should hold off.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on March 28, 2011, 11:24:23 AM
Well if we do use the mercenary aliens, I may be the only person here who actually knows how to put mercenary bots into a level without messing up an entire D3 installation.

But that means we can do it.

And in terms of mercenary bots, I think the experimental tentacled ones from Merc level 5 would fit into the idea too, and so would the tractor beam bots (we might as well use as many of them as we can :P).
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on March 29, 2011, 02:55:51 AM
I've always thought the bots with the red lasers in Merc were the coolest.  I think they were called black stormtroopers.  Anyway...

Someone mentioned why the bots were in a certain room and what were they doing there.  Keep in mind these are mining bots infected with an alien virus.  Just like a computer infected with a virus, the may not be acting in a predictable manner. In fact it would be completely in character for some of them to be acting entirely incoherent.  Perhaps just moving around in circles, shooting at random, or other pointless, odd behavior.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 29, 2011, 06:13:46 AM
Once we have it settled what we want in terms of aliens, we can use just about any robots we want, because as I explained, in addition to the aliens, there are also a bunch of ordinary (but of course infected) robots wandering around, from both D3 and D1. And theoretically any other Descent we want to include. Just wanting to make that clear.

Assuming we just stick with the Merc aliens, the explanation for their actions would be pretty simple to explain. Basically, their standing objective is to survive, and to multiply and spread, like a real biological virus. I'm also fairly confident they'll also be pulling off Borg-like assimilate other technologies and the such to integrate with their own. The infected robots are to serve as minions for these goals. Then of course, they are also building that boss robot. As I saw it, that pretty much summed up all of their actions. Didn't really think it needed to be more than that. In fact, I thought it was pretty obvious as is.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 29, 2011, 06:20:46 AM
...But I actually like it better this way, because then it better supports the group-project idea this is all oriented around. I feel like if I went ahead and sketched every square inch of the mine, that wouldn't leave everybody else much chance to be...creative. I'd much rather do bits and pieces, leaving some areas blank so when people are building the level, they get that chance to be creative as they fill in the blanks. :)...

I wasn't mentioning a full-scale sketch of the mine, That would be a single-handed design. I was talking about the general layout of the level: like which room is going to connect with which room. As I recall, we are not going to use the original layout, but introduce some new passageways, rooms, vistas, etc. created by aliens... So we can determine which rooms to be used, and what other rooms should be designed... And then we can share the rooms between us, and everyone will build his/her given room.

Note that I'm not talking about the detailed design of each room, just how are they going to connect; the details are left to the editor, who will construct given room(s)...

...I mean, take the recreation of D1 level one in D3's level 10. From a realistic standpoint, that little mine should've been evaporated entirely...but then you wouldn't have anything to go back and revisit. Furthermore, by the fact that so much of it survived could possibly explain why it's still infected. ;) If it makes you feel better, I suppose we can work at coming up with some kind of explanation that explains why so much of it is still fairly intact (definitely not in mint condition though. Damage should be apparent all throughout, including the reactor blast, the aging of the time that has passed, and the aliens messing with it). Maybe the blast somehow got shunted somewhere else, or maybe the infected bots had put up some kind of shielding around the reactor room that somehow spared most of the mine. I dunno.

Well, it is okay if we can explain the reduced damage and suprisingly intact rooms somehow. But lets say the overall amount of the damage should be at least look realistic to be convicting enough.

...As for the aliens, I don't think I'm the one who should say so much at this point, because everybody seems to have different ideas about this should go down in that area. For me, I wasn't thinking anything THAT special, I would've just reused the aliens from Merc lvl 4, as that seemed to be the most logical, and furthermore, maintains continuity. But as I've read everybody else's thoughts on the matter, seems pretty clear that not everybody else has been thinking the same thing I have. So until we get that sorted out so that we're all picturing the same thing, I think I should hold off.

I'm afraid the overall character of the aliens are the major element that is going to shape the level... After all, they are re-shaping the ruins of the former-Mining colony to their needs. I'm not debating whether we should use the Merc's alien bots or some other Whateverisidoid alien being to be separately modelled. I'm simply asking WHAT are their agenda in the mine, and how do they do it, so we can determine a general standard to reflect that when designing the rooms. And, as you are the creator of this idea we have VOTED to follow, you are the person that should tell the most about the aliens, and provide the guidelines that we should follow.

In other words, YOU are the LEAD designer here.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 29, 2011, 07:45:06 AM
EDIT:
Sorry, didn't saw the last message you got:

...Basically, their standing objective is to survive, and to multiply and spread, like a real biological virus...they'll also be pulling off Borg-like assimilate other technologies and the such to integrate with their own. The infected robots are to serve as minions for these goals. Then of course, they are also building that boss robot.

Let me see if I got it: Okay, we have our alien, and their motives. And I guess from your sketches, and the overall lean to the Merc L4, their "architecture" is organic.

So here is a variation of their "life" in the mine: They "eat" the remains of the mine, and convert it into their use-for this matter, they have built several key facilities into the mine, and turned the mine into some "organic" processing facility, and a factory to build the bossbot. The heart of this processing plant is the old reactor core itself, where they built a new, toothy "reactor". The reactor area is also the Boss bot's construction zone. The rest of the alien "construction" is focused to the areas that damaged the most, and recede where the damage is less...

So we have a level, that starts out as a ruined mine, and slowly blends into an organic alien processing&production plant, right?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 29, 2011, 08:52:56 AM
Yes! Exactly! :D

As for when the alien portions start and stop, I was more thinking about having the original mines tunnels be there, and then the new alien portions be kind of interwoven in-between those original tunnels, on occasion overlapping when the old tunnels have suffered more damage, or parts of the old mind have collapsed and sections are no longer accessible. Granted, I haven't been portraying this too well in the sketches, but that's partly because the sections I've chosen to sketch thus far haven't always fit too well with these specs, and furthermore, I haven't been entirely sure how to accurately portray the interweaving of the newer aliens tunnels with the old.

Quote from: Shroudeye
Well, it is okay if we can explain the reduced damage and suprisingly intact rooms somehow. But lets say the overall amount of the damage should be at least look realistic to be convicting enough.

Yes, this goes without saying. The surviving tunnels by all accounts should not be pristine in appearance. They should be very damaged in a lot of areas...but whether or not they're navigable is to be determined, which leads me back to the sketches. I see now what you're getting at, and I'll attempt to produce a brief but overall view of the entire mine for my next sketch.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 29, 2011, 10:07:23 AM
...As for when the alien portions start and stop, I was more thinking about having the original mines tunnels be there, and then the new alien portions be kind of interwoven in-between those original tunnels, on occasion overlapping when the old tunnels have suffered more damage, or parts of the old mind have collapsed and sections are no longer accessible...I haven't been entirely sure how to accurately portray the interweaving of the newer aliens tunnels with the old...I'll attempt to produce a brief but overall view of the entire mine for my next sketch.
Right now what we just need is an overlay of the level's layout, then we can start assigning rooms to editors. We can discuss, poll, and determine the details later; where everyone can submit their ideas, sketches, models, even *.orf's/*.oof's*d3l's, etc... But we need to have a FUN-to-play layout first.

And, if you are concerned about "big" papers, you still have the Printscreen&MS Paint (Or better?) combo at your disposal...;)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on March 29, 2011, 03:12:10 PM
Oh, I have better all right, I have Photoshop CS5, so new I've hardly used it yet. ;)

But I don't think I would need that even. I'm thinking that I'm just going to grab a nice angular screenshot of the actual level from within something like DLE-XP and then make modifications as necessary.

Once I do that, however, I'm going to go right back to sketching as before, because that's actually kind of fun. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on March 29, 2011, 04:04:32 PM
Oookay. Keep 'em comin' Scyphi!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on April 14, 2011, 03:49:30 PM
Keepin' 'em comin' (albeit a little late) :P

Full view to read my notes. Sorry the mine is all in bits and pieces, but I just couldn't find a decent enough view that included the whole mine, so I was forced to break it into pieces. This isn't a complete and detailed diagram either, this is just the basics to give you the idea, as well as a few new ideas I came up with while putting this together. If I need to get more detailed, I'll do it with each individual portion as needed via sketches, like the ones I was doing before.

Hopefully this is what you were asking for, Shroudeye.

BTW, that "lounge" seems to be officially named after you now, as it's a mighty convenient name to refer to it by, and have everybody know what we're talking about. :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on April 14, 2011, 10:21:26 PM
YES that was what I've been asking, Scyphi; good work!

The "bits and pieces" approach can actually help us: We need to divide the mine, and assign different parts to the level builders, right? So, now we got those parts, I think we can start building some of them...

If you don't mind, I'd like to start this division sequence: as there is a part that has been named officially after me, shall I start working on that part?

Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on April 15, 2011, 06:19:18 AM
Okay with me. :)

EDIT: Looking back through what I jotted down in those notes, and seeing I noted that a blue key at the very least was required, I realized that's not actually as necessary as I first thought. The blue doors simply need to be locked, so to keep the player from venturing too far into the mine too easily, but they don't necessarily ever have to be opened. I expect that once the player has gained access to the alien tunnels, those tunnels would allow the player to bypass the locked blue doors and gain access beyond anyway. It's for this same reason that I declared yellow and red keys wouldn't be so necessary. Maybe what we could do is have these doors locked in the typical manner (Blue/yellow/red access denied), hinting to the player that keys could be required, and lure them into looking for a key, only to not find any, because they aren't anywhere in the mine. So they'd be wasting time looking for one, but a new player to the level obviously wouldn't know not to look for one. :D

Instead, what they would need to do is to find a way to unlock that one door I have labeled as locked near the start (I'm thinking some kind of switch somewhere). Once they have, then they will gain access to the alien tunnels in the room beyond that would, within reason, lead them to wherever else they need to go.

A reminder that we still need to decide on whether or not to do a classic-style exit tunnel escape, or a teleporter-escape. Again, I put a vote in for the teleporter, as I think that'd be fun if done right.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on April 15, 2011, 07:10:27 AM
...So they'd be wasting time looking for one...

AND, getting frustrated. Confusing a player, especially misleading him/her will end up he or she start recalling the designers name(s) with some obscene words, with only one reason: wasting their time. We are making something, that people interact for a certain period of time, with a purpose of having fun.

Just put yourself into their place: What would you felt, if you were hunting for some items (like access keys in our example) for a few minute, half of an hour, or so; just to realise that they aren't as much necessary, and not even existing?

We should hint the players to the right way. If those access doors going to be sealed without any key, allright they can. But the hint we should give is to "look for a way in", not "look for a key" if there is none.

Edit: BTW, where is everyone? its just two of us talking?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on April 16, 2011, 06:38:21 AM
(I'm double posting to avoid confusion, by separating my two posts that are telling different things.)

Regarding to level end: It depends on how we are to end the level.
Teleporter, by its nature can be used as a "cliffhanger", that the player would not know where he/she is going by ending the level... It can lead to safety, or right into the alien realm...

But if it is going to lead into safety-back to the carrier/base/etc. we assume the player is launched-, using the good old exit sequence can be better, which is a sufficient yet simple reward for beating the level.

An alternative, if you are going to end in the safety, yet still want to use teleporter: The player *Begins* by teleporting to surface from some "teleporter room" (Preferably in a cutscene), and teleports back to the same room in the end...

Here are some ideas of mine for exit, and of course, open for further discussion... Maybe we should add more ideas, and vote them?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on April 16, 2011, 08:02:09 AM
Quote from: Shroudeye
AND, getting frustrated.

I really kind of doubt they'd be looking around for THAT long. We're already expecting the player to be familiar level already, so they should already know the likely places to look for a blue key. And it's not like there's going to be that many places they could look for the key too at that point. And I think it highly likely that in their searching they'll find whatever means they need to unlock that one door that's keeping them out of the alien tunnels (it's not like it's going to be hidden). Once they see that the key isn't in the usual places and that the alien tunnels lead around the blue doors without needing to open them, I'm confident they'll catch on that keys aren't at all necessary, and once they learn that about the blue door, they'll probably quickly catch on the same for the yellow key, and you can't even get at the red door with our plans. So I don't think there's going to be much chance for a lot of frustration to get generated with the player. But if you want to be assured of this, we can hint towards this in the mission briefing (but of course not flat out tell them, that'd make it too easy). That way, if any unnecessary frustration is generated, it'd probably be because the player didn't pay attention to the briefing (I mean, I've seen that happen repeatedly in levels, especially D3 levels, where players get stuck and frustrated with a level, because they didn't read the mission briefing and didn't know what they were supposed to do) and we can pin the blame on that.  ::)

As for the teleporter, I was thinking that the player would come across it in passing earlier in the level, and while doing so, Guide-Bot scans it and makes several deductions about it, and conclude that it could be used to escape the mine. Then, later, when the mine is geared up to self-destruct (again) and you need to get out of there, I figured there would be something you needed to do to get the teleporter going, and maybe we can make what we need to do the player having to stop and "set" the teleporter to take you to the surface. I would think that alone would be sufficient to circumvent any confusion, but I'm not at all against throwing in a cutscene of the player arriving safely on the surface. In fact, we can do that no matter what we do, just because it seems like the natural thing to do.

If the classic-exit-tunnel escape, though, there are several ways we can do that. We can use the original exit tunnel, but we would have to address somehow that it's been cleared for use (because it quite clearly caved in after it got used the first time). If so, I was thinking that maybe your mission sponsors (I was thinking Red Acropolis or the CED...maybe both working together) sent some service bots down there to clear the tunnel in advance. Or maybe that can be part of the mission objective, you having to stop and clear the tunnel yourself through some means, OR clear the way for something else to come and clear the way.

But we don't really have to use the original exit tunnel. We could just have the player be forced to go back out of the mine the way he came in, or maybe the aliens built an alternate tunnel that could be used to escape. Or maybe some other, hidden, portion of the old mine is now accessible to the player that could be used to get to the surface.

See, this is why I keep bringing the subject up. There are so many ways we could handle the exit, we're going to have to decide on which one we want sooner or later, so it might as well be now.

The more I think about it, the more partial I become to the teleporter idea. I think we could have a lot of fun with that. :)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on April 16, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
...I really kind of doubt they'd be looking around for THAT long. We're already expecting the player to be familiar level already...
Actually we can't be sure who will be playing the level. It can be some newcomer, who doesn't even played the other 2 Descents (i.e, I got D3, before I got D2). And if we do not give any hint to the player, be it a newbie or veteran, it will cause confusion. I'll explain by walking through current scenario:

1-Player encounters the blue door(s) and can't get past them. Here we "tell" him/her (Passively, if not actively) to go and look for the key.
2-Player starts searching the blue key:
 2a-If the player is a Descent "veteran" (Like us, who knows the mine from heart): he/she will go to the big room for the key, couldn't find it, turns around confused, and starts searching the other places, including the terrain...
 2b-If the player is a Descent "Newbie", or simply forgot the layout: he/she will go hunting the key, possibly returning to terrain area in the process...
And of course neither can find the key in the end.

Now, at either case, the player starts to get bored, and may soon quit. If he/she is a tough nut, and continued onward, there is more to come:

3-The player somehow finds the switch that opens the locked door near the entrance, shoots it and unlocks the door. Sooner or later (depending on how we notify him/her), the player understands that the actual goal was to shoot the switch and open the door; but not searching the key, as opposed to what we "told" him. Which, will lead into frustration.

It doesn't matter if the area is small or big; if the player gets bored for some reason... GAME OVER.

Briefings may not be the best option to go, as the players tend to skip it. Also, our sponsors aren't know well about the mine, as they want us to investigate, no? So we somehow have to lead them, in GAME. We can have it with some hard scripting... I'll explain this after a while, on another post, as right now I got to go to sleep (Its 3am here, and I got a lotta stuff to study!)...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on April 16, 2011, 06:43:01 PM
Perhaps the door could be 'damaged' so when the player gets the key, guide bot tells him the door is damaged and he needs to go look for a part.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on April 16, 2011, 09:08:51 PM
Another version of WillyP's idea that doesn't require the removal of the alien tunnels' role (I like the alien tunnels):

Maybe when the player gets to the big room where the key used to be the guidebot will tell the player that the key doesn't exist anymore (maybe sort of like "Don't you remember you took the key out of the mine during First Strike?"... but obviously in such a way that he could have been mistaken that there was an actual existant key a few minutes earlier), and to find another way.  You just need to find a way to force the player to the blue door before they find the key room - maybe have rockfalls blocking all the shafts leading into that room, and a switch in the room with the door that destroys the rocks..

It sounds like it would be simple to script.  Of course now we need to find a way to stop the player from shooting the switch before they shoot the door.  I have a few ideas to make it plausible, or at the very least player-intuitive.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on April 17, 2011, 02:49:46 AM
Actually I just got an idea here, thanks to WillyP AND Wazzazle ;):

When the player enters the mine, the first thing he/she will see is the locked door ahead of the entrance. As the player approaches that door, the Guide-bot scans the door, and detects some anomalities (Star Trek, anyone?). Also, there are some alien wires, which goes down to the big room beneath, which strongly implies that this door may be unlocked from somewhere down there. Yet the shaft leading down is blocked by debris, forcing player to go to the either room with a blue access.

Accessible through one of the rooms with blue access, there is another door leading to the big room. So, we damage that door. The Guide-bot tells the player that the door is broken, needs replacement parts to be opened.

The parts are located in the other room with the blue access, which is a dead-end (The one accessed thru a tunnel with brown bricks). We arrange it such, so the player goes a little close to the blue door, which is damaged-beyond-repair, and has some opening. The Guide-bot will tell the player that it detects more anomalities beyond the door, which implies a possible connection with the first one. Also, the player will see a part of what is behind the blue door (a huge lava pit, easy to remember) from there, and marks it as a visual reference.

The player goes back, repairs the door leading to the big room, and enters the big room. Of course there is no key, but there is an alien tunnel, and our alien wires coming from the door above goes into this very tunnel... So the player marches down the tunnel, traces the wire, finds and activates the switch/device, and unlocks the door.

Note that I've never mentioned any kind of key to the player. The only player who may think about the key is the one that played the original level before, who hits that intact blue access (which vaguely tell "Access denied" and not even talk about the key), and assumes its existence, judging by the location and the color of the lights. Yet he/she will be vague, as we didn't supported his/her assumption.

Backtracking, the player enters the Pinky room, which now connects to the lava pit behind the blue doors. So the player (If somehow assumed that there are keys) finally understands the keys aren't necessary (in fact not even existing), but by connecting the bits and pieces we provide, and solving the puzzle; instead of blindly searching the key and stumbling upon that switch.

Now if there was any vague confusion before, it is forgotten; and thanks to the obvious achievement, we got our player.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on April 17, 2011, 06:53:29 AM
Hmm...

Well, I'm not entirely sure if I'm completely sold on this particular solution to the problem, but I suppose it's something. Probably my biggest complaint is that it seems overly complicated.

I actually kind of like wazzazzle's solution better. Just have the player come up to a blue door, try to open it, get the classic "Blue Access Denied" message, then a few moments later, have GB follow up by saying that you're probably going to have to find another way around, doubting any keys would be found anywhere in the mine. Seems much simpler IMO.

I DO want to take the chance to point out, again, that the switch to open that one locked door wouldn't be that hard to find. In fact, I was thinking of sticking it not far from that blue door in the room with the brown bricks. With that in mind, it was my theory that the first thing the player would do upon finding blue doors with no key in sight is to check for any doors he hadn't opened and explored behind on his/her map. Eventually seeing this one locked door hadn't been explored behind until it is unlocked (which again shouldn't be hard to do, I see it as the player flying past it, seeing switch and hitting it, because that's what you do with switches) and opening it to look behind it and seeing more (alien) tunnels to explore, and perhaps thinking the key is down those tunnels, proceeds to explore them. As he/she does so, however, they find these alien tunnels lead them to the places past the locked blue doors, and quickly realize that these tunnels circumvent the entire need of finding a key, and would switch gears to focus again on finishing the mission, seeing no need to keep searching for a key he/she doesn't really need anyway. That was my thinking behind it.

HOWEVER, I did completely forget to keep the terrain in mind while thinking my way through all of that, so I guess I am forced to admit that you're probably right Shroudeye, we need some kind of failsafes to prevent or at least avoid player frustration. :)

Quote from: Shroudeye
Briefings may not be the best option to go, as the players tend to skip it.

As for this, I'd say it'd be the player's own fault, not the developer's, for that. I really think it's kind of pathetic, if I may say so, when players start single-player missions with briefings and don't bother to read the briefings, especially in D3, when, more often than not, vital mission information is provided in those briefings. That's why the briefings EXIST in the first place. I can't tell you how many players I've seen who get unnecessarily lost or stuck in a mission they're playing, simply because they didn't read the briefing and thus didn't know what they needed to do (I wasn't kidding about that earlier). Not only that, but I also think the player would be robbing themselves of the full SP gameplay experience by skipping over it like that.

...

Okay, I'll get off my soap box now, but I just wanted to make that point clear. :P
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on April 17, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
Actually, My idea is roughly like the Wazzazle's idea. By cutting that vertical tunnel, the player is forced to take the other ways around, which eventually end up with blue doors. Also, now the only access to the big room is thru the room with blue door.

The door repair puzzle, and the location of the switch behind it has a sole purpose: it makes sure that the player goes and sees through the busted blue door and visually marks the area behind, BEFORE player can unlock the upper door.

So after unlocking the door, proceeding through, and recalling the area he/she just saw, it will be easy for him/her to understand that the keys aren't necessary at all.

I guess what made it look complicated was that I running through some smaller details...
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on April 18, 2011, 06:15:33 AM
No, it still seems overly complicated to me. Wazzazzle's idea I like better because it's simple and straightforward. You shoot at the blue door, find it's locked, and GB just tells you what's going down and what you need to do from there. That just seems so much easier, and achieves the same purpose.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on April 18, 2011, 12:31:10 PM
Pff. Okay, just was an idea. As said, final decision is yours.

Anyways, I'll be able to start construction of the lounge at this weekend... Got a presentation to prepare... and without any sleep!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on December 06, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Thread revival, I know, but I was rereading through all of this, and wondered if anybody actually got around to doing anything for this beyond what was already posted. I know I haven't. I don't really expect anyone else to, either, I'm just curious.

Not really a good reason to revive so old a thread, I know, but...  :-\
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on December 06, 2011, 05:33:41 PM
Good a reason as any to bump a thread!
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Shroudeye on December 08, 2011, 02:32:22 PM
Well, honestly I haven't did anything either...  :-[
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on June 06, 2014, 09:21:53 AM
Uber thread bump here, but...been rereading this monster of a thread, and...whatever happened to this idea? ;)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on June 07, 2014, 05:31:41 AM
We weren't actually doing anything with all the ideas we came up with so we all just kind of gradually lost interest.
As far as crowd-sourcing goes I think mission building makes more sense than level building.  I mean, look at The Enemy Within :D.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on June 07, 2014, 07:19:47 AM
I dunno, I think we were getting onto something here, it's just nobody really took the first steps to commit to it. Not that I can blame them, we all have lives beyond Descent, myself included, and sometimes the time and energy to do it just isn't there.

Still...we were bouncing around some neat ideas in this thread. Pity nothing became of them.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Thomas on July 28, 2014, 08:53:31 AM
Maybe this thread really needs a serious bump.  :)

I would like to point out that there's an SP/co-op mission for D3 that hasn't been completed yet.

As far as I remember, only a five level set has been released so far.

The full mission has (or was supposed to have) 11 more levels. 10 (!) of them are entirely ready, only the last one is missing quite some scripting. All of the levels are missing their briefings, which should actually fit with the already existing level set. I believe to remember that even the music is pretty much complete. Most of the levels would probably need some new light re-calculations.

Would that make it a good start (or continuation)?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on July 28, 2014, 11:21:36 AM
Well, it could be something to work with if the necessary people will rally behind it, and we have the original developer's permission to proceed.

What is this level set you speak of?
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Thomas on August 20, 2014, 03:25:27 PM
I think it doesn't really matter. ;)

It took several thousend hours to create the mission set as it's been released, and up to 15 000 hours more for the parts that haven't been released yet. ;)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on August 21, 2014, 05:51:55 AM
I think it does. Nobody's going to want to pitch in to work on a level-anything that they know basically nothing about.  ;)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on August 21, 2014, 06:14:25 AM
He's waiting for you to remember, and figure out what he's talking about.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Thomas on August 21, 2014, 06:19:57 AM
Well, there is only one single-player and co-op mission set that's been released with 5 levels.  ;)
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on August 22, 2014, 05:42:27 AM
I must not have played it then, because I'm really drawing a blank here. Or I've forgotten.

It'd probably be easier just to tell me what it is (and then watch me kick myself for it proved for not remembering it, because odds are I probably HAVE played it, just forgotten).
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on August 22, 2014, 11:02:19 AM
Easier logically but not psychologically.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: -<WillyP>- on August 23, 2014, 07:38:54 AM
I know of that of which he speaks, just can't remember the name offhand. I think I played it both SP and Co-oP.
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Kaiaatzl on August 23, 2014, 11:13:38 AM
I got to play it in co-op a couple times, but I missed the awesome briefings.
Can't wait for more of those briefings :D
Title: Re: Crowd-source level building
Post by: Scyphi on August 23, 2014, 07:19:51 PM
Well, I guess it's not that important then. I'll move on to other things.