Planet Descent
Development => Descent Development => Topic started by: Violetta on October 27, 2010, 05:34:01 PM
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I've been contemplating putting a team together and making a Descent clone, anyone interested?
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Might help if you describe your vision, and what you are bringing to the table. You might also be interested to know of other projects in progress, like the Open Descent Foundation (ODF) (http://www.odf-online.org/forum/index.php)
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To be honest, there have been so many projects like this, so far none of them (except Miner Wars) has had anything to show for it. I think many Descent fans are going to be skeptical unless you show you have a solid idea and proof of concept.
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Especially, Into Cerebron looked so good, and it seemed they were well on their way, then it just kinda disappeared.
High Octane, full of grand ideas and... empty promise.
Miner Wars, seems like it might be the next 'D4' but it's an MMO, not really sure about that.
Even ODF, they have been at it for years, not really a whole lot of output, that I can tell, anyway.
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Well like a modern game created by Descent fans for Descent fans with Descent-like gameplay.
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Btw you know Descent 4 got uncanceled right? Interplay announced that they will be reviving the franchise.
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Reading threads like this one makes me wonder what their authors dream of at night. :P
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Uhm. "Into Cerberon", not "Cerebron" (that'd be something like "brainiac" in Latin-ish).
And High Octane was already released in the 90s... There was an air racing game by that name, released a year or so later than Descent...
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Oh well... Why Descent, and not, say, Ascent? You know, with open spaces and free movement and planet atmosphere re-entry and interplanetary travel...
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And High Octane was already released in the 90s... There was an air racing game by that name, released a year or so later than Descent...
I believe WillyP means High Octane Software, the would-be creators of Core Decision, a Descent-like game that never got off the ground.
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Even ODF, they have been at it for years, not really a whole lot of output, that I can tell, anyway.
You kinda have to join the forum to really see everything we are up to. We have 6DoF movement (Much like D1 or D2) and physics, working shield and energy powerups, and some netcode. And we have a nice menu design, designed by our very own Isaac Gallegos. :) We have a lot of content at our disposal, thanks to the Nexuiz project. (Over 1GB of textures, alot of sounds, and a lot of other things.)
And of course, we have about 85% of the weapon models finished. :) There are also a couple D3 map reworks going on as well, that will be included in Flight Back.
We're planning for Flight Back to be able to convert D1, D2 AND D3's levels to its own level format as well. (One of the best features in my opinion :D)
Im not sure why we are so quiet about the progress we have, I've been confused by that as well.
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@ Violetta: Yes, Interplay has indicated that they would like to revive the franchise, but nothing has really become of it as of yet. The most they have done (that is publicly known) is re-register the Descent trademark and state they intend to release a port of Descent (presumably D1) to the Wii as Wiiware, which according to their own scheduling should've probably been released by now, or be at least be real close to a release (they said Fall 2010), or at the very least, give a more solid release date. Not a thing more than that has been done that we know of. I'd love it if they do pull off a D4, and I'm not saying they won't (Interplay's surprised us enough times already) but for the moment, if a D4 IS in the works, it's most likely a VERY long way off.
@ WillyP and all else who said or indicated as such: Just my personal opinion, but while Miner Wars looks to be a very promising game, I dunno if I'd call it the "next D4." It's very Descent-ish, but at the same time it's still very much it's own game, with it's own style. I wouldn't even call it a proper Descent clone. Still, as I said, Miner Wars looks very promising nonetheless, and I would love to see it be finished. :)
@ Darcshadow: Yeah, what is up with Flight Back? I've heard it be mentioned several times, but no one has really explained to me just what it's supposed to be other than the obvious presumption that it's a Descent clone. Since there's so much secrecy about it, I haven't really pressed the issue as I assumed there was a reason for the secrecy, but I am curious, and would like at the very least a rudimentary description.
Back @ Violetta: I suppose you are more than welcome to start working on a Descent clone of some sort, but I hope you go into it being FULLY aware of what you're getting yourself into, and with the GUARANTEE you can follow through on what you've started. Despite what it seems like, this is not as easy as it might seem. I learned that lesson the hard way with the now defunct Project: Pavilion that I myself started. It never even really got off the ground, and what we all very few of us had to show for it in the end was a whole lot of speculation and lists of ideas of what we wanted, but never got to building. As well as some music (which I still have). It all proved to be a lot harder than many of us were expecting. And that can't even begin to compare to the work of creating a Descent clone, as Project: Pavilion was only to be an elaborate mod for D3, something far less intricate than a full-fledged Descent clone. And we couldn't even pull THAT off.
So, in short, we'll all be much more interested when you've got something to show for it, beside talk, speculation, and the announcement of the intent to do this. No offense. :)
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Even ODF, they have been at it for years, not really a whole lot of output, that I can tell, anyway.
You kinda have to join the forum to really see everything we are up to. We have 6DoF movement (Much like D1 or D2) and physics, working shield and energy powerups, and some netcode. And we have a nice menu design, designed by our very own Isaac Gallegos. :) We have a lot of content at our disposal, thanks to the Nexuiz project. (Over 1GB of textures, alot of sounds, and a lot of other things.)
And of course, we have about 85% of the weapon models finished. :) There are also a couple D3 map reworks going on as well, that will be included in Flight Back.
We're planning for Flight Back to be able to convert D1, D2 AND D3's levels to its own level format as well. (One of the best features in my opinion :D)
Im not sure why we are so quiet about the progress we have, I've been confused by that as well.
All of what you have listed is resources, not output. I didn't say the project was dead, I don't think it's dead. Output would be material meant for the public: teasers, trailers or maybe a demo would be nice. Perhaps you guys don't want to waste time on that sorta stuff when you could be modeling or coding, that's cool. On several occasions I have asked for a press release or even an informal update but never really got a good enough answer to determine whether or not I should consider it a serious project with potential for completion. But don't take this the wrong way, I'm not ready to dis the project yet, either. All I am saying, is without any output, I have no way of knowing. Compare to Miner Wars, I get an update from them once a week or so. I don't blame you for not wanting to bother with that kinda stuff, but don't be surprised when someone questions whether or not your project is going anywhere.
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I have more optimism about ODF than Miner Wars, but Scy is quite right in that we as a Descent community have plenty of reasons to be skeptical of claims about new Descent-like games.
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I guess you could say that the ODF has made "backwards" progress :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcMrLptC8Do&feature=recentu
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Well, my suggestion for Violetta is if he has skillz in any area, to join a project already in progress, like ODF. Or at least, take a look and see if it's something you feel you could get on board with. Or is your wish to be a leader, rather than a contributor?
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Foil... I don't doubt that you probably have more experience making programs than me, but you really should stop harping on Miner Wars.
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Or is your wish to be a leader, rather than a contributor?
One doesn't exclude the other...
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@ Matt: I dunno if I'd really call that a harp on Miner Wars. It could even be debated if it was even directed at Miner Wars. All Foil said is that he had more optimism for ODF than Miner Wars, which could be interpreted any number of ways. Furthermore, I don't think it was really necessary for you to bring up the subject. I've learned (through experience) that sometimes it's better to not bring up these subjects and just let them drop. Assuming the other person does as well.
To be fair, though, all I pointed out about the subject was that I didn't think Miner Wars was a proper Descent clone. It's certainly Descent inspired but it brings enough new material to the table that it is its own game. Something like ODF would be considered a Descent clone, especially as the video NUMBERZero was kind enough to provide a link for demonstrates that it looks something like a mix between D2X-XL and D3.
Speaking of which, NUMBERZero, just because ODF looks backwards at the moment doesn't mean they aren't going to make more progress, if they haven't already. It's a WIP, remember. I personally think what they showed in that vid would look great once it's got some proper lighting. :)
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To be fair, though, all I pointed out about the subject was that I didn't think Miner Wars was a proper Descent clone...
That's kind of why I put it in brackets in my first post.
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Well what are some existing projects out there?
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Scyphi, "backwards" was a joke. You need to play multiplayer more often. Ascent (the level in the video) was backwards.
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Ha! I thought that looked familiar!
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Or is your wish to be a leader, rather than a contributor?
One doesn't exclude the other...
No, you are right, my thought was that maybe the reason he wanted to start another project was that he wanted to lead a project.
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Scyphi, "backwards" was a joke. You need to play multiplayer more often. Ascent (the level in the video) was backwards.
Do you mean Upside-down? If so, I fail. :o
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Scyphi,
I have to say that Foil is slowly giving me the feeling too that he is just vituperating Miner Wars.
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Do you mean Upside-down? If so, I fail. :o
I think it was mirrored. Sort of like the tracks in Lego Racers when you play them for the second time.
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@ Karx: *looks up vituperating* Ah, here we go... :P
Actually I don't that was his intention in this instance, otherwise he could've done a lot more of it. Besides, I don't think he's trying to start an argument. Already went through this. He made his thoughts about it clear, most of the rest of us made it clear we thought differently. We all got our thoughts off our chest, etc, etc.
Really, probably nothing left to discuss about that. So let's move on past that. :)
@ NUMBERZero: Oh. ::) Okay, my bad. That's what I get for making a mountain out of a molehill, I suppose...
@ Alter-Fox: That comment was really more directed at everybody than at any particular person. Actually, I had forgotten you had even mentioned Miner Wars in your post. :P
@ Violetta: Since no one has answered your question as of yet, the only active pseudo-D4 or just Descent-related projects that I know of are ODF and Miner Wars. Can't vouch for ODF, but I do know that Miner Wars is looking for anybody who's willing to pitch in with their project, so I suppose if you've got any experience in the field, you could look into it. :)
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"vituperate" came closest to what I wanted to say (in German). In German I would have used a very common expression - I just couldn't find a better translation.
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Again, I'm simply "calling it as I see it."
Here's what I see:
Miner Wars
Fluff:
- Attractive website
- Lots of videos with plenty of graphics/effects
- Plenty of advertising
- Community involvement (logo contest, tourney)
- Scripted demo
Scope:
- Massive, tons of features
Hard content:
- Alpha singleplayer-only demo with lots of asteroid/ship models but very limited functionality
Status:
- Asking for investor and pre-purchase $$
To me, the above looks like a typical investment ploy (well-advertised product, lots of promised features, shiny prototype without much functionality, developers catering to small niche market).
Honestly, I hope I'm wrong. I'd sincerely love to see Miner Wars actually come to fruition. But I don't think that's ever going to happen.
...On the other hand:
Open Descent Foundation
Fluff:
- None whatsoever
Scope:
- Narrow, well-defined, very limited
Hard Content:
- No demo
- Getting core structures in place, including netcode and tools for use of existing resources (D1/2/3 levels, etc.)
Status:
- Agonizingly slow development
- Asking for development assistance
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IMHO, the ODF guys are going about it the right way, even if this pace means it'll be five years before we see anything. They're putting core pieces in place before advertising it to the world and asking for $$... not the other way around.
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Miner Wars has more "core structures" in place than the ODF project. It has a working game engine with graphics, effects, physics, lighting, and some economy (ore mining).
Maybe your sight is a bit distorted by your preconception?
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Miner Wars has more "core structures" in place than the ODF project. It has a working game engine with graphics, effects, physics, lighting, and some economy (ore mining).
True.
But I'm looking at the amount of development compared to the scope of the project (e.g. it's supposed to be a highly online-dependent MMO... but they haven't yet shown even a hint of online connectivity).
Under that measure, MW just doesn't cut it. Particularly not for a project they're already asking people to invest in and pre-purchase.
P.S. Preconception? I was initially as excited about Miner Wars as anyone.
Listen, I'm not telling anyone they have to share my opinion, I'm simply stating it.
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So what you're saying is that because they have big dreams, even though they have more core structure than ODF, the project is doomed?
... Huh?
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What? No, that's not what I said at all.
I said that for a project with such a massive scope, the existing demo really doesn't show much.
Combine that with the overwhelming amount of fluff (that's exactly what all the splashy advertising/videos/screenshots/events/contests and promised-but-unseen features are), and it looks like a typical investment ploy.
IMHO: Once they have all the investment / pre-purchase $$ they can get, we won't see anything else out of Miner Wars.
Feel free to disagree with me, but until I see some real content rather than the fluff...
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Foil,
np with your opinion. But is there a problem discussing about the issue? :)
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A playable demo is most certainly content. What % of their total scope it covers is irrelevant.
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Well, the pre-alpha release was rather disappointing. The non interactive demo they released a while back ran flawlessly and very smooth, but the pre-alpha stuttered even at greatly reduced settings, and crashed a few times. Plus the fact that there isn't much you can do other than blast tunnels in the asteroids and harvest rock.
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I may not be a development expert, so it's possible I may not know what I'm talking about, but fluff or not, it seems to me that Miner Wars has made more progress than ODF, furthermore, Miner Wars has gotten the attention of quite a lot of people (as was previously stated) while ODF is still fairly unknown (no one has given me a detailed description of said project as of yet, hint-hint ;)), plus Miner Wars is also in a position to showcase a fair bit of it's features already whereas with ODF, if they are in a position to do that, they haven't been doing it.
Not to ridicule either project, of course. I wish them both the best of luck and hope they BOTH are seen through to completion. :)
I suppose I do see Foil's point though, although I fail to see why he seems to think the chances of that rather worse-case scenario seems to be so high. As I see it, ODF is progressing, yes, but at a snail's pace, and the developers from what I understand is going on (if I'm wrong, I blame this on the fact that nobody seems to tell me much about ODF :P) is struggling to keep it going, and the interest in it fresh. It sounds frighteningly similar to what happened to Project Pavilion (which, BTW, I hate bringing up again and again like this, makes me feel like a self-centered and nostalgic twit to be honest, but it's the best experience I have to draw off of), which quickly encountered similar issues, and was part of what ultimately led it to it's downfall (not to say ODF is doomed with the same fate, of course. Personally, looking back, I think Project Pavilion was doomed to begin with, whereas ODF stands a much better chance. They've actually got WORK done on it, for crying out loud, something Project Pavilion couldn't really profess :P). Miner Wars seems to be the complete opposite from ODF, though. It has the experienced software development team, the financing, the public support, the game engine they THEMSELVES built, the ability to market it what they have already which they've clearly been succeeding at despite whatever arguments one might have about the wisdom and ethics of it, and I KNOW that they have at least one or two people participating in Miner Wars that participated in the development of Descent itself. All of that are some pretty dang impressive accomplishments, regardless of whatever faults one might see. I suppose if Miner Wars was only just some elaborate swindling scheme from the beginning what Foil says might be true, but I highly doubt it. There's too much evidence to suggest otherwise.
Now I'm not saying any of this to frustrate anyone or cause problems, at least, that certainly isn't my intent. And I respect what Foil has stated as his honest opinion about Miner Wars. However, I don't think he sees our opinions about the aforementioned, otherwise the subject wouldn't keep coming up, and he wouldn't be so defensive about it. Of course, we haven't always helped either, as looking back we've all been pretty defensive for Miner Wars ourselves, and to be perfectly fair, Foil didn't start the discussion on this topic this time around. He just jumped in when it came up. Probably felt his opinions were being threatened and felt it necessary to defend them. Like when Karx gets riled up when someone ridicules D2X-XL (no offense, Karx, I know you've gotten a lot of crap about that and are thereby justified in acting like that at times).
So, my point? I dunno, I guess I'm just trying to get people to see both sides of the issue as I see it, to hopefully to try and stop this...disagreement...from getting out of hand, which it hopefully never will, but hey...
Also, and this is completely and utterly off topic and probably a poor time to bring it up to boot, but seeing that I no doubt will already have Foil's attention by this point for whatever reasons, I would also like to remind him of the existence of a certain Descent Fan Ficition (http://descentfiction.forumup.org/) which would greatly enjoy his presence there if and when he can find the time. :)
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Foil,
np with your opinion. But is there a problem discussing about the issue? :)
Of course not; I never said there was any problem. What aspect do you want to discuss?
I suppose I do see Foil's point though, although I fail to see why he seems to think the chances of that rather worse-case scenario seems to be so high.
That's fine. Again, I'm not asking anyone to share my opinion; I'm simply stating my perspective, which is based on my own experience.
...I respect what Foil has stated as his honest opinion about Miner Wars. However, I don't think he sees our opinions about the aforementioned, otherwise the subject wouldn't keep coming up, and he wouldn't be so defensive about it.
Not trying to be defensive, and I completely understand the hopeful perspective (remember, I shared that perspective until recently).
I'm simply trying to clarify my view, as it's been misconstrued multiple times in this thread. I'm also simply responding to people who have been specifically addressing me in their posts.
...I would also like to remind him of the existence of a certain Descent Fan Ficition ([url]http://descentfiction.forumup.org/[/url]) which would greatly enjoy his presence there if and when he can find the time. :)
Thanks for the reminder. :)
Life is starting to slow down a very tiny bit for me, so I may be able to get back there sometime.
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Descent Fan Fiction... that reminds me, Xaihyv and I have completely forgotten about the Descent II Thingy... we need to get back into that. Right now we're getting more ambitious and considering a machinima comedy. But seeing as we don't know how we could do that (knowing how to enable free-camera in XL could help a bit, but we'd still need to control for all the robots (especially the evil guidebot)), we may be aiming a bit too high.
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CTRL+ALT+S ;)
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Thanks
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It seems that folks could use some clarification as to what the ODF project is exactly. Hopefully I can shed some light on the topic.
For those that don't know me, I am the project leader for Flight Back, currently named "syzygy" during the development process. I started plans for syzygy during the Spring of 2009, writing plans for a week before writing any code.
Background on the Open Descent Foundation can be found here. (http://www.odf-online.org/homepage/about_us.php) I won't waste time retyping that. The goal of our main project is to create a new Descent-like game, but compatible with currently existing levels. We want to provide access to the treasure trove of existing levels, but also create an environment in which we can expand visually, including newer features of modern graphics adapters. Although this is our end goal, we're starting small and basic.We likely won't have fancy particle effects, or real-time-this-or-that, but we aim for a stable game to be released, and then we can worry about going back through and adding in features that aren't 100% necessary for gameplay.
It seems that due to our lack of videos\screenshots\etc folks don't know much about the project... I believe that some folks have touched on this a few times in speculation, but I can confirm it: Due to the number of Descent-like projects that have come along, and ended up in the garbage heap, as a development team we have decided to hold off on drumming up publicity until we actually have something playable.
From what I've gathered from this thread, Miner Wars has made it a point to release a couple of demos for folks to play. One that was unplayable, more of a sit-and-watch deal; and one that one could actually play around in. That's great for them, I applaud their progress, and their willingness to throw "into the wild" what they've accomplished. This is not the route that the ODF has chosen to go. For the reasons listed above, we will consider releasing some sort of demo after we have major features in place. We may decide to release a "blues and concs" netgame version once we are that far along. This way the demo is an actual playable demo. Plus, it'll give folks a chance to fight in an environment where you only have basic lasers, and dumb-fire missiles. The goal is to not drum up interest before there is something to be interested in, possibly wasting time that we could be programming.
As it has been mentioned, and I'll fully agree with it: Our progress on the project is slow. Very slow, so slow that if a snail were to pass it, our project would yell at it to stop speeding. This is a byproduct of the fact that currently our development team consist of three individuals: King_Lo, D_Cent, and myself. I am currently mired in a college semester from heck, thus cutting down my programming time to zero.
King_Lo has been working on netcode. He's made it a point to plan in find detail how the netcode shall work before doing programming. THankfully he has also gotten a chance to do some proof-of-concept programming seperate from the game, before he worries about implementing the netcode into the game itself.
D_Cent has written a "dynamic GUI system" that had a similar version implemented into D321GO!! (http://odf-online.org/wiki/index.php/D321GO!!). This allows us to make changes to our GUI system without needing to recompile our game. He is starting the work of implementing the system into the main game within the next few days.
When I had free time, back in August...., I was working on getting all physics-related things up and running. As this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV0Ma_kEYcc) can demonstrate, we have 6DoF movement working, and basic powerup pickups. Between that and weapons fire, I was rather enjoying the work.
We welcome volunteers! Although we could use developers the most, anyone who has skills that may be useful to the project are welcome! As I said before, we are working to provide the ability to play D1\2\3 levels, however we do have a member of our team remodeling current levels to improve them. "improve" is such a fague term, so what do I mean with that? Generally it's been to take sections that are low poly, and add details. We're not going overboard, but between this, and using textures from the Nexuiz project, the results are impressive. I'd post a picture of what I am talking about, but although improvements have been made to the level, I would like to give our modeler (one of two) a chance to complete more of the level so we can get a better idea of what it will look like.
That theory sounds a bit familiar, doesn't it?
Just because it was touched on so many times, I want to explain our position.
Our project is almost invisible. We don't generally go around pasting demos\pictures\videos everywhere. Quite frankly what we have currently isn't a whole lot to write to mom about. Our development is slow, but at the rate that 6DoF games are being brought to market (read: none). We believe that we have enough time to do things right. It would take extra time out of our already stressed development time to create cool videos constantly, and therefore it's not a priority. We want to make sure that our development does it "right" If that means that through our personal schedules, and developmental choices it takes us another year or two that's alright.
Descent 1 and 2 have had the chance to see improvements with the release of their source code, and the hard work of karx, and zico. Descent 3 has not been so lucky, and there are many signs that features needed to be dropped because of deadlines. Also, lack of proper support for the Linux and Mac platforms are problematic. We want to create a free, multi-platform-friendly game for all to enjoy. Since we believe that we have the best chance to succeed compared to previous projects at this goal, we want to "get it right the first time." We have one chance to make a release and garner respect and support for further development. That will not be gained by rushing the project along.
I mean not to "call anyone out", or poke fun at anyone. This is our view on things, and hopefully this helps explain our objectives and methods. Thank you.
-[RIP]d3jake
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I wish you had chosen to modify a good current 3D engine (personally I am favoring the UE3 engine; read more about this here (http://www.descent2.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24047#24047)). If you had, I would have seriously considered joining your team. Creating yet another graphics engine in my opinion is a complete waste of time though (and a tremendous effort if you want it to look at least halfway up to scratch; actually it is such a huge task that I believe it is doomed to fail already - so much more as you have so little time and are progressing so slowly: It is foreseeable that once you're out of uni, that'll be pretty likely it).
Being able to use the existing Descent 1/2 levels is not a very good argument either for doing so in my eyes. Most of these levels are crap (I have sifted through all on PD and some others for my level spotlight). Personally, I am longing for the proven Descent formula in new, shiny clothes. To be honest, seeing people build yet another vanilla D1 or D2 level makes me either fall instantly asleep due to boredom or feel like throwing up. I have seen that crap for 15 years, and I cannot see it anymore.
I am sorry if this sounds like I am trying to discourage you. I am not. I am however trying to be realistic and (although that may be unrealistic) direct your ambition to where there is at least a chance of it bearing fruit.
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It's true, if you think your busy with school now, when you go out in the real world and start a career, you'll wish you had all the free time you had in school. Unless you are planning to be a part time school bus driver. ;) I don't know about one engine or another but there was good progress made using the Doom 3 engine, seems a shame that project went belly up...
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Well, I wanna thank D3Jake for explaining ODF to me, so that now I finally know what's going on with that project. And you have to give him and his fellow teammates credit for getting as far as they have already. Granted, it's not much, but for some projects, it's more than what some have to show. :P
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You're welcome Scyphi. Now the public has an easy-to-reach explanation.
Currently we're using the Irrlicht graphics engine as the basis for our game. On top of that we're using Bullet for physics, and the audio\networking libraries are up in the air. We decided that writing anything from scratch would be a waste of time. One of the concepts that we want to work with throughout the project is an open program (hence Open Descent Foundation). This allows development, innovation, and the ability to adapt the software to many different kinds of platforms.
As karx has pointed out, there are many full blown engines available to us, but we decided against using such an engine.
We don't want to completely leave behind Descent 1\2\3 levels, but nor do we want to rely on being able to refurbish older levels. To a certain degree, dragging the older levels with is may end up doing more harm than good, however we decided that we wanted to allow backwards compatibility with older Descent versions in an environment free of "Well, you can play these levels, but you need the original data files."
karx: I appreciate your comments. Realism is something that we need to keep in mind while we work on our project. Criticism, whatever the motivation (as we both know there are those that would like to sling garbage for the sake of it.), can be useful. Keep up the comments in the future; we'll be happy to have an outside opinion as we progress.
Sadly speed is at a premium... This past summer I've helped pick up the pace, and during the semester King_Lo and D_Cent have been working on various parts of the program. Come Winter break I'm wanting to hit the ground running.
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Irrlicht? I had looked at it once and turned away from it because it appeared to be too unfinished and too much of a W.I.P. to me. I wonder how it will cope with dozens and dozens of light sources during fire fights.