Planet Descent

From the Front Page => News Board => Topic started by: -<WillyP>- on October 14, 2010, 04:09:46 AM

Title: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: -<WillyP>- on October 14, 2010, 04:09:46 AM
From Miners Wars:

Quote
Dearest Fans,

last week Miner Wars has been released at a 70% discount in its pre-alpha version. We have allowed our fans to buy the game before its even released and save a lot of money on its purchase. I can already state that the sales have been going spectacular and the sheer number of new registrations proves it. Never before have we seen so much interest in the game! We have also given our fans the possibility to contribute money to the development. Some of our fans have donated some really nice sums! We would like to express our deepest gratitude to all of the people that have contributed. Your help was much appreciated and will never be forgotten.
At the time of the release we have promised our fans that there will be frequent updates to the game.

So here is the first one of many!

Sandbox mode - players now can generate their own sectors that will contain random asteroids and enemies.

Harvesting / mining - YES! Players can now start to accumulate funds by harvesting materials. We have kept our promise on persistent world so your harvested funds will stay with you all the time. They will never get erased. You have a few good reasons to start harvesting now. All the materials will now give you the same amount of money and your funds will be accumulated instantly. In the future builds different materials will yield different earnings and the player will have to sell the materials on motherships or stations. So start now and get a decent headstart!

Editor - start creating your own sectors. Soon you will be able to share these sectors with your friends.

Ship customization screen - tweaked

Mining drill - now working properly

Some minor bug fixes.

This is just the first of many upcoming releases. Not only the game will cost less now but you will also get a pretty nice headstart when the game is released. Its a good idea to buy Miner Wars now! :)

Your Miner Wars team

www.minerwars.com
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: IHateHackers on October 14, 2010, 04:15:51 AM
In case anyone didn't notice, the paid miner wars beta is up now ;) Has anyone played it? How is it?
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on October 14, 2010, 04:35:32 AM
I'm buying it as soon as I can (I wish that was now).
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 14, 2010, 12:39:17 PM
So they make people pay for a beta?

That's indeed an inventive business plan.

Edit: It's not a beta - not even an alpha: It's a pre-alpha version.

The incentive is that you get it at 30% of the retail price plus have an advantage over people entering the MW universe at a later point of time and/or stage of game development.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Foil on October 14, 2010, 12:47:27 PM
They're asking people to pay for a Beta (or pre-Alpha, for that matter)?!?

Wow... I've been seeing "red flags" about Miner Wars for a while, but this takes the cake.

There are only a few possible reasons a company would ask for $$ in an Alpha or Beta stage, and every one of them are BAD signs.

Sorry, guys.  I'm staying far away from this one.

---------

[Prediction: A year from now, most of us except the die-hard hopefuls will be chalking up Miner Wars as another failed (or faked, for profit?) commercial 6DoF attempt.]
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 14, 2010, 12:55:31 PM
I just tried to log into my Minerwars account - proper username given, unsure about password - and couldn't. So I had them send me a new password. It properly arrived and stated the correct username I had been trying to login with. So I retried with the new password. It didn't work. I had another password be sent to me. Login still didn't work.

WTF?

Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: IHateHackers on October 14, 2010, 01:01:59 PM
DERP! Didn't notice the thread.

Methinks the people going "omgwtf" at being charged for an alpha should look at Minecraft. Look at the stats. Look at the sales per day. It's over 9000. It's over 10000 in fact. That mean's they're doing something right.

You can either buy it now at a fraction of the cost, or buy when it's done for full price. Free alpha's (especially ones for MMOs) are lost money for a company. They may not have the resources to host their game for free for another year while they finish it.

Though I'm curious what these red flags you've seen are.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on October 14, 2010, 01:34:56 PM
When you buy the pre-alpha that means you'll get access to all updates for free, including the final version.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: InsanityBringer on October 14, 2010, 03:03:11 PM
Yes, minecraft is selling like a madman at the moment. It's in alpha stage with a ~48% discount.

In general Miner Wars is starting to sound like a fancy minecraft in space, but this isn't a bad thing! It may be worth it in the end.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: NUMBERZero on October 14, 2010, 04:28:11 PM
Yes, it is very bad that you have to pay for a beta. I know that I will be buying it because a whole bunch of things hooked me.

BUT! It is 70% off if you buy it now and you will get the full version when it is released.



Plus the guys that were in the tournament get something else special than the other regular guys. ;)
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: -<WillyP>- on October 14, 2010, 06:19:34 PM
DERP! Didn't notice the thread.

Sorry, Matt, it's my fault. I posted this then noticed your post with almost the exact same title.  I tried to merge the threads, but it wanted your post on top, because it was older, I guess. So I copied your post to a new one here and deleted your original post.  My post needed to be first so it shows on the front page.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: PyroJockey on October 15, 2010, 04:40:04 AM
They're asking people to pay for a Beta (or pre-Alpha, for that matter)?!?

Wow... I've been seeing "red flags" about Miner Wars for a while, but this takes the cake.

There are only a few possible reasons a company would ask for $$ in an Alpha or Beta stage, and every one of them are BAD signs.

Sorry, guys.  I'm staying far away from this one.

---------

[Prediction: A year from now, most of us except the die-hard hopefuls will be chalking up Miner Wars as another failed (or faked, for profit?) commercial 6DoF attempt.]

I recall people paying for beta releases of Windows 95.

I too am curious as to the "red flags you mentioned". The fact that they are already 1 year behind schedule?

I have already bought the pre-alpha, for $14 it was worth the risk. Wait and see.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on October 15, 2010, 06:19:36 AM
I personally thought this "buy the pre-alpha now for dirt-cheap and essentially get the final for free as a result later in life" was a move that would rob them of money in the end, but it seems to be working out for them. The production people have come out and stated that interest has at least doubled in the game since they made the pre-alpha available. I look at that as a good thing. And I personally think the game has already proved that it has a good chance of some success already, so I don't see why there are those fearing this will all end in failure.

I am curious as to some of those red flags Foil alluded to, though.

I have not yet bought the pre-alpha yet, as I am not sure our computers have the capabilities to support it as of yet.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Foil on October 15, 2010, 08:00:07 AM
Okay, regarding the red flags I'm seeing here:

Some of it has to do with marketing vs. development. 

Over the last couple of years, they've spent TONS of time on videos, website, promotions, competitions, etc.  They've promised all kinds of features, talked endlessly about graphics and realism, gone to trade shows, worked up a bunch of videos... but with almost no real functional work to show for it.  (I'm sorry, but an online-game alpha/beta without any online functionality at all doesn't do anything to encourage me about the development.)

Some of it has to do with the financial aspect.  They're not only asking for people to pay for what is essentially a non-playable Beta, they're actively asking for donations (note that they've already apparently convinced a few people to give them large sums).

There are other red flags, but the above are the two big ones.

---

These guys are going to get as much money out of this as they possibly can (watch for more videos, more promises, more talk, none of which will end up in anything playable).

...and then we'll never hear anything about Miner Wars again.  It would be nice to be wrong on this, but I'm certain I'm not. 

I give it perhaps a year, two at the most.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 15, 2010, 11:51:16 AM
Sorry Foil, but that's mostly speculation, and of the negative kind.

I have seen some of the source, and the game has a working foundation. There's also been an early playable version where you can fly around and shoot stuff (including asteroids). The engine is there, and some smart ideas have gone into it.

Of course making a full blown persistent MMO game with high quality web based services is another story.

Btw, my login problems have been resolved.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: IHateHackers on October 15, 2010, 12:18:04 PM
I guess I don't see how paying 10$ (less than the monthly subscription of almost every MMO in existence) for permanent access to the game and any subsequent updates is a one-way-deal. Even if the project goes under in a year, they say they expect online play in the enxt few weeks. A week of access to an MMO, even a pre-alpha of an MMO (which has a lot of the promise features already, btw) is a damn good deal to me. You can't expect free access to an MMO, it's just not practical for an upstart company. SE can do it because they are an old company with significant business. The miner wars team has literally nothing apart from what they get for this.

Also, your unfortunate personal dispute with the developer has little to do with the game itself. although I'll admit it might've been a little immature.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Foil on October 15, 2010, 12:34:22 PM
I have seen some of the source, and the game has a working foundation. There's also been an early playable version where you can fly around and shoot stuff (including asteroids). The engine is there, and some smart ideas have gone into it.

After multiple years of development and all they have is an offline graphics engine + ship + asteroids?  Sorry, but that's not "playable" in any sense of the word.

For an MMO, I'd call that a "proof of concept" at best.

...they say they expect online play in the enxt few weeks.

Ha, they gotta be kidding.

Tell you what.  If they release a playable online version anytime in the next year, I will let the PD community pick a horrifically embarrassing method of apology for me to do.  (But it's not gonna happen.)  8)
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: IHateHackers on October 15, 2010, 12:43:18 PM
Foil, you have to walk before you can run. They're still fine-tuning their engine, which is what they've spent "years" making. What good is online play without a stable engine? Online play is a lot more complicated than clicking a few buttons. Making an entire physics engine from scratch is not exactly a "that's all?" thing. It's not a proof of concept, it's a base. A strong one at that.

I have already started thinking of your apology methods.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 15, 2010, 12:46:41 PM
Foil,

point taken, and I cannot contradict you.

I am also asking myself whether all of their programmers are up to such a task. There's a difference between an experienced and highly qualified professional, and a novice programmer or enthusiastic uni student (sure, some of them are very good, but they are probably already working elsewhere).

Matthew,

I wonder how much expertise you are having here. Building the engine should be the smallest part - with a good team that knows what it does. The bulk of the work should be content and infrastructure (networking, databases, community management, payment handling, ...) So having spent years just on the engine isn't exactly encouraging.

24 months just to get the engine up to scratch is too much in my opinion (and technically speaken it is by far not bleeding edge - it can't be, given MW targets the XBox, too). The problem is that most of the development work has been done by the lead developer, and that he had been rebuilding the engine as a C#/XNA Game Studio solution. And XNA Game Studio is being advertised as an entry level tool.

Sorry if this sounds like I am trying to be negative. I don't. I am just pointing out facts. If the MW team proves me wrong so much the better. :)

Btw, with "one-way deal" I was referring to the request to share site referrals and give feedback. I was about to purchase the pre-alpha, because I can easily afford to waste 10 Euros in the hope the investment would pay and because I like the idea of Minerwars, but I couldn't. I have however to say that I don't like the graphical presentation of the game too much yet. The asteroids look bland, and there's too much dust and fog for my taste. There's too little genuine style and detail (just compared to the Clone Wars CGI movies - these have such a unique and distinctive look and design (even apart from the typical Starwars design). The game looks horribly generic and uninspired. I have come to prefer slightly stylized, great looking designs over realistic ones. There are so many games with super realistic graphics out there. But sure, gameplay >> graphics. :)
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Foil on October 15, 2010, 01:06:45 PM
I have already started thinking of your apology methods.

Think away, be creative! 8)

In a year, we'll come back to this.

The problem is that most of the development work has been done by the lead developer, and that he had been rebuilding the engine as a C#/XNA Game Studio solution. And XNA Game Studio is being advertised as an entry level tool.

They're using XNA Game Studio?  Heh, that's hardly the "engine from scratch" they're advertising.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 15, 2010, 01:09:33 PM
I cannot agree with that. It somewhat helps getting a basic structure, but that doesn't make a game engine at all - particularly one with features like Minerwars. The asteroid implementation is a very nice one, regarding both geometry and texture handling aspects. I love the elegance of the approach chosen for it. XNA Game Studio is also a pretty logical choice if you are targetting the XBox.

Foil, please - you are appearing a bit over-zealously negative. ;)

I think throwing 10 Euros at the Minerwars people for the alpha isn't a bad investment. They're not just pretending something in order to make a lot of money. They have taken quite some risk themselves, and of course they may be reaching for straws. If they manage to keep their project floating it might however turn into quite a cool and original game. So imo the potential gain is much higher than the potential loss.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Foil on October 15, 2010, 02:07:26 PM
Foil, please - you are appearing a bit over-zealously negative.

I'm not trying to be over-zealous.  I'm "calling it as I see it", simply because I see more fluff and fund-raising than actual content.

Everyone can disagree with me, of course.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 15, 2010, 02:26:36 PM
Did you ever try the interactive test, or the pre-alpha?

If you didn't you probably should, before spreading more FUD.

In case I sound like an MW agent: I am not. I am just trying to be as objective as I can, and I am giving the MW team the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Pumo on October 15, 2010, 02:41:54 PM
Well, both sides had a valid point, but I also think that the MW team is doing a solid project that will be feasible as a complete game in a not so far future (unlike the old Core Decision that didn't go anywhere far).
Or, at least that's how it seems, and I hope so.

So, I also think that they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

It's good to be prepared for a deception (in that point I can agree with Foil), but being so partial is a bit unfair for the MW team.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: IHateHackers on October 15, 2010, 02:59:40 PM
Well if they expect to have online play up in a few weeks, then clearly they are close to having working net code as well.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on October 15, 2010, 03:30:20 PM
...unlike the old Core Decision that didn't go anywhere far...

That's what I thought too, MW is a much more worthwile investment than that.  And they have got a lot of pre-alpha copies sold (and about a hundred good reviews of the pre-alpha circulating around on their site).
Imo this looks a lot more promising than Core Decision or Invasion (or any other Descent-like project).  They do have some pretty talented people on their team (who came on their own, without being asked), who apparently do see promise in the concept.  At least one of them even worked on D2 and Vertigo.

Considering all this, I don't think a scam seems likely at all, especially if it's supposed to be targeted at Descent players... wouldn't scammers have picked a bigger/more lucrative community?
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: IHateHackers on October 15, 2010, 09:01:31 PM
The fact that scam is even considered sickens me. They developed an entire working engine that you can fly around and blow stuff up in. From what I read it's pretty detailed in little things even. Hardly scam material.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on October 16, 2010, 07:11:22 AM
Yeah, on this matter I'm with Karx on this one. The potential gain outweighs the potential loss. Foil, I'm rather shocked at you. Yes, you raise a fair point, but with such negativity, like there is no other possible outcome. And you are clearly refusing to see it any other way. You've very nearly sparked a flame war, too, for no good reason other than you felt we were all betting on something that wasn't going to come about, something none of us can really call at this point. It could fail, or it could succeed admirably, or it could do something in the middle. I personally am willing to wait and see. At the moment, Miner Wars looks promising, and like it'll pull through.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 16, 2010, 11:48:50 AM
Foil hasn't sparked a flame war at all - and if, then it wouldn't have been his fault. He has been sticking to facts as he sees them, giving them the weight he sees fit.

If anybody takes so much offense in that that he'd feel inclined to start a flame, then it would be the fault of that person, and that person alone.

-----------------------------

I am having trouble with the pre-alpha though I just bought and installed: When starting the game I was already logged in as "Diedel", but could neither start sandbox nor story play - the program tells me that I have no access rights to test build. So I logged out and tried to login with my Minerwars account ("karx11erx" and the proper password), but was told that I was using the wrong nick and/or password. So I tried "Diedel" again, but I am not sure what my password is, and I couldn't find a way to retrieve it via the game.

WTF?
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: -<WillyP>- on October 16, 2010, 12:01:36 PM
Foil hasn't sparked a flame war at all - and if, then it wouldn't have been his fault. He has been sticking to facts as he sees them, giving them the weight he sees fit.

If anybody takes so much offense in that that he'd feel inclined to start a flame, then it would be the fault of that person, and that person alone.

Well put, I agree.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 16, 2010, 12:23:28 PM
Login problem solved.

I have played the game in story mode. Not much of a story here, but the game has come quite a way since I've last played it months ago during my brief time as MW developer.

Now what can I say? Probably a few lines that could easily serve as punchlines:

- If this project will be brought to a good end, it will be a more than worthy successor to Descent 3.
- Descent 4 as I always had dreamed it up.
- This game conveys space in the most gritty, tangible, convincing way I have ever seen in a space game
- If the outcome of this project solely depended on the devs getting enough funds to finish it by throwing a low-cost pre-release at the public, by all means go get the pre-alpha and let them finish this game!

A few details.

The game looks a lot more polished than the version I had played months ago. There's a lot more detail. Space representation has been improved by quite a margin. Asteroids look better (too metallic for my taste, but yet). There are huge artificial structures you can even enter - to find yourself in a Descent 3 style "interior" level (i.e. hallways and rooms).

There's still a lot to be done in the area of texturing and modelling, but I wish and hope that Keen Software House will be able to pull this off the way they envision it - and I regret that Marek and I couldn't get along better (although our last e-mail exchange has sobered me up pretty much - after months he still felt the desire to leash at me). Oh well.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Pumo on October 16, 2010, 12:29:01 PM
Mmmh, that sounds really nice and makes me want to try that pre-alpha. I will see if I can buy it later on.

The thing that brings my attention mostly now is that there are artificial structures on it similar to D3. :)
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on October 16, 2010, 12:31:18 PM
I would like to detail my "punchline" "Descent 4 as I had always dreamed it up".

Everytime I had been thinking about Descent 4, I had been desiring that was more than the same old formula of fly around in (underground or wherever) tunnels and hallways, accomplish missions which basically follow the "get or do something here to be able to access the area there" formula.

Minerwars is exactly that, because besides offering the Descent formula gameplay (true first person 3dof) it adds two entire dimensions: Economy and diplomacy (factions/alliances). Actually it adds another dimension by (hopefully) allowing tactical and strategic warfare between rivaling factions.

Maybe you have heard of or already seen one of those "4D" movie shows, where you get to see a 3D movie (using polarizing lenses) and on top of it get real wind, rain and snow effects inside the theater.

Well, in an analogy I would call Minerwars a "6D" game.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on October 17, 2010, 07:42:25 AM
Quote from: Karx
Foil hasn't sparked a flame war at all - and if, then it wouldn't have been his fault. He has been sticking to facts as he sees them, giving them the weight he sees fit.

If anybody takes so much offense in that that he'd feel inclined to start a flame, then it would be the fault of that person, and that person alone.

Okay, poor choice of words on my part, my apologies. You're right, weren't that close to a flame war at all. However, I will state that it could've gone in that direction if we had all reacted differently. But yeah, we didn't so no need to dwell. :)

Your review of Miner Wars of how it stands at the moment Karx is very promising. I too certainly hope Keen Software pulls off the finished product. :D
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on October 17, 2010, 08:21:25 AM
Me too.  I'm still waiting for my eCheck to go through...
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: PyroJockey on October 18, 2010, 04:55:32 AM
I have played the game in story mode. Not much of a story here,

I can't help but wonder if I'm the only one missing something in the "story mode".


So what is the story? What's the objective?


Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on October 18, 2010, 06:36:39 AM
It's a pre-alpha. The story is still probably in development. :P
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: NUMBERZero on October 18, 2010, 06:53:11 AM
The ore that you mine NOW gets turned into money when the full game comes out. The money is saved on the server when you exit the game.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: NUMBERZero on October 29, 2010, 08:38:29 PM
slight bump

Check it out!
http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=1168

Most impressive.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: InsanityBringer on October 30, 2010, 06:25:16 AM
To answer your question in that thread, Mars Science Laboratory is scheduled to go up in November of 2011, so it's going to be a bit before you can see the launch.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Sidhe Priest on October 30, 2010, 07:16:17 AM
I would like to detail my "punchline" "Descent 4 as I had always dreamed it up".

Everytime I had been thinking about Descent 4, I had been desiring that was more than the same old formula of fly around in (underground or wherever) tunnels and hallways, accomplish missions which basically follow the "get or do something here to be able to access the area there" formula.


You see, that's exactly why Descent 4 would never be. Not as "Descent" anyway. A new game would have to be the other way around - with freedom of movement on and around planets, a real storyline, etc. More of an RPG-like world with no fixed blow-this-get-that shooter path, more of a life of its own. Space/air-sim+claustrophobic cave-dwelling or structure-dwelling+RPGish lifelike story/world.
Then it'd be interesting.

But of course nobody would do it because such a game would be considered to have a "huge learning curve" (or what's the current euphemism for "skills and attention needed"). The technology is already there though, there's the Infinity Engine (http://www.facepunch.com/threads/722419-Infinity.), which has a fractal terrain encoder/generator and allows transitions from space down to cities and fishies floating in sea. In fact, that's what may be the perfect engine for the next game.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on October 30, 2010, 08:28:15 AM
I'd personally just want D4 to just be more Descenty. Preferably a hybrid of D1 and D3, with a few new twists to make it interesting. With no RPG elements. Never been that fond of RPGs (too long and complicated). Miners Wars is an exception to that in the fact that it will support single-player campaigns.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on November 22, 2010, 09:10:47 AM
For those who haven't seen yet, it seems Foil was partially (not completely, partially) right.  There has been a misunderstanding between the developers and the community, in that the MMO is actually a separate game.

You can find more info about it here as well as a special offer that the devs made to "rectify" the misunderstanding here: http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=1382 (http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=1382)

Note that as part of the offer anyone who has already ordered will get the MMO free when it's finished as well as the singleplayer game.  The same goes for anyone who orders before December 1st.  The singleplayer/story version will have multiplayer, but it will be more like Descent's multiplayer.

@Scyphi: I'd actually want D4 to be more like D2.  I think D3 already felt too much like D1.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: PyroJockey on November 22, 2010, 10:32:11 AM
I'm leaning toward Foil's point of view on this issue. I do not believe this was just a misunderstanding. between the developers and the community. All the statements from the initial press release to the current overview on the official website lead the reader to believe that this is a single game that is "a combination of single player story game and MMO".

The email that Miner Wars sent out October 8th announcing the 70% sale makes references to the MMO as an installment of the game and how if you buy it now you will get the full game at no extra cost.

Quote
we are publicly releasing the game in its current pre-alpha state at a 70% discount from the price of the final version! Every player who chooses to buy the game at this stage of development will not only be able to play the game now, but will also receive monthly updates, as well get the full game at its release with no additional charges. We will be adding a lot of content to the game as we progress. As time goes by, and we near our final release date, this offer will become more expensive for you, so now is the chance to get the game for just a small portion of the price.

STATE OF THE GAME
Currently the game has one functional sector and basic single-player gameplay. We will be adding the multiplayer part of the game quite soon with arenas for competitive game-play. We have also added an editor in which fans of the game will be able to make their own sectors. Very soon, players will be able to share these sectors online with their friends. In the near future we will also add the possibility of sharing these sectors with the entire multi-player community. The final state of the first installment will be the single player campaign with full co-op story and multiplayer arenas with deathmatch and team deathmatch modes.After the release of the first installment we will continue to work on the MMO part of the game which will contain all the advertised features along with a few surprises!


It could be they bit off more than they can chew and are now trying to back-paddle, but regardless "Don't pi** down my back and tell me it's raining".

Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Foil on November 22, 2010, 10:38:41 AM
...it seems Foil was partially (not completely, partially) right.

How so?

They're still claiming that the version people are paying for is going to have online multiplayer.

I said that I don't believe they'll ever release anything except limited offline demos, advertisements, and continued requests for $$.

[Seeing the MW guys cutting back / breaking up features tends to solidify my personal opinion, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other.]
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: PyroJockey on November 22, 2010, 11:15:05 AM

I said that I don't believe they'll ever release anything except limited offline demos, advertisements, and continued requests for $$.

[Seeing the MW guys cutting back / breaking up features tends to solidify my personal opinion, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other.]

Just an observation, if the intent is to defraud, and Miner Wars multi-player is just a carrot on a stick that you will never reach, I don't think they would cut the carrot in half. A con artist does not go from promising you the moon and the stars to just promising the moon when the money starts coming in.

I think they started with good intentions but overextended themselves.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on November 23, 2010, 09:36:28 AM
I will not deny that this was a most unfortunate oversight (or whatever) on the part of the developers, the players, etc, but blunders happen, and Miner Wars is, as I understand it, Keen Software's first game, so they're entitled to making a couple mistakes, particularly in marketing. Not that it justifies anything, because I agree, this shouldn't have happened.

BUT...I think they're telling the truth, and that it's nothing more than a misunderstanding, just one that took far too long to sort out. And I say that because, looking at their past descriptions of the game INCLUDING the one PyroJockey posted, it can be read both ways to be either seen as "SP and MMO", as was the misunderstanding, OR as "SP with the MMO being separate."

Really what it comes down to is to wait and see what happens. As Foil pointed out, this still doesn't really prove anything. Miner Wars could very well still come out as the complete success we're all wishing it to be. Or it may not. We'll see. I will admit this little mix-up has gotten even me a little leery, but I'm not giving up hope just yet. 'Cuz I gotta admit, this is actually good news for me. I was NEVER interested in the MMO aspect of Miner Wars, just the single-player, and for the moment, it looks like we could still at least get that much.

Although it doesn't really matter at the moment what I think, as it'd be pointless for me to get it at the moment, as it's doubtful there is a computer I have access to at present that can run Miner Wars ideally. Maybe one day in the future I'll be in a position to upgrade to a new laptop, and hopefully then be able to run programs like Miner Wars, so if things are still going good then... :)
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: PyroJockey on November 23, 2010, 10:15:24 AM
Regardless, I put my money down and am along for the ride. I too am not really interested in the MMO aspect, partially because I haven't played any MMO's (except maybe for Second Life, which didn't hold my interest for long).

I do believe they started out with good intentions and still intend to deliver a game, of some sort, but I believe what they are lacking is project management and this project keeps slipping away from them. Good intentions and brilliant and creative programmers are not enough to make up for poor project management.

They need to set definitive milestones and then meet them. I don't currently see this happening.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Pumo on November 23, 2010, 12:59:24 PM
The same here. To be honest, I've never been interested on the MMO part at all.

However, I agree that they were aiming too high, even much more high that what they can achieve as far as I can see, but yes, I still think it's more solid than any other Descent clone projects and I'm still excited as well.

As Scyphi said, this is also good news to me, as this maybe means the Single-player portion (as being independant of the MMO) will be released sooner (hopefully).

Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: NUMBERZero on November 23, 2010, 04:22:37 PM
They just released news that confused some confusion. The MMO is going to be a SEPARATE thing. The normal one is with single player missions and servers for mulitplayer just like Descent.



Hello fans and customers!

Ok, so it turns out we had some misconceptions pertaining to the inclusion of the Miner Wars MMO with the pre-order package. We have to clear this up now: The MMO is its OWN THING!

If you're unaware of the nature of these things, after I explain why it is this way, you'll understand:
The version of the game you are guaranteed by pre-ordering, WILL (will, will, will) come with multi-player mode, but more in the style of Descent with server lists, each based in one sector/level at a time. An MMO, something quiiite different, takes quite a bit of work, even for a professional company, and a LOT more money/resources to keep running, (server costs, developers, paid maintenance, etc.). Remember, we're an independent company, and as such it is a risk we literally cannot afford until we have substantial, reliable income from the first release (what you have pre-ordered). This has been the plan from the very beginning.


A COMPROMISE
We acknowledge that we could have done a lot more to quell these misconceptions from the start, so we're willing to give anyone who's ordered so far a *free* copy of the MMO when it has been released. We're also willing to do the same for anyone who orders by:

***December 1st, 2010***

(to be fair to those people who were planning to pre-order soon and assumed there was going to be a full-blown MMO as a part of the package)

Heh, so if you haven't ordered yet, order while you can, and to everyone who has ordered, thank you for having patience with the team and enjoy your extended access. :p
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on November 23, 2010, 04:27:11 PM
I just posted that.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: PyroJockey on November 24, 2010, 05:01:35 AM
He's just confused.  ;D
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on November 24, 2010, 09:05:18 AM
Personally, I think the fact that they're trying to make it up to everyone for the mix-up as best as they can (and are succeeding fairly well, too) says oodles about them. I mean, yeah, this probably shouldn't have ever happened, but look at their solution; offer those who wanted the MMO who had been under the impression it was all one deal a copy of the finished MMO (whenever that might be) for free. And I think that's great of them to do! I mean, how many gaming companies do YOU know of that would even THINK about doing that? :D

But another issue about all of this that caused all of this to happen is that the fact they haven't been very good about updating the site as things change (something that was already pretty obvious) because they claim that the decision to make the MMO separate was done a long time ago. So yeah, at the very least, there is a communication issue here.

But it could be worse. I mean, they could be even worse business managers that are virtually bankrupt trying to produce a game on seemingly nothing banking on the fact that one game will save them, if they can even release it at all, like Interplay currently seems to be doing.  >:(

Guess what I'm saying is that despite all of this, I still have a lot more faith in Keen Software than a lot of other companies/peoples.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on November 24, 2010, 09:10:50 AM
One entire side of my family comes from the Czech republic.  I've seen misunderstandings like this happen before even if the person who's misunderstood speaks seemingly perfect english (my grandmother for example).

And yeah, I definitely have more faith in Keen Software than Interplay.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on November 25, 2010, 06:56:03 AM
Yeah, I mean, Interplay was supposed to give us Descent on the Wii by now.  >:(
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: karx-elf-erx on November 25, 2010, 12:23:34 PM
Uh-oh! This looks like a 90 degree turn at full speed!

I don't consider this a misunderstanding. To me it rather looks like a (intentional?!) mis-communication.

Not nice.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: -<WillyP>- on November 25, 2010, 01:10:18 PM
I agree, when I first read the e-mail, I thought, well, maybe Foil was right.  The whole deal smelled a little rank.  But in the end, anyone who bought into the pre-alpha will get both anyway, so what difference would it make?  The fact is, they are far more forth-coming than most commercial efforts.  This has hurt them in the public eye, as they are essentially airing dirty laundry.  The question for us, as potential buyers, is just how dirty is that laundry, and is the wind blowing our way?  By offering both versions of the game to anyone who bought the game thinking they were going to get both, the laundry is washed and hanging out to dry.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on November 26, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
Ooh, nice analogy!  ;D
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: NUMBERZero on November 26, 2010, 02:12:04 PM
I did get the feeling that they mislead us intentionally. >.>
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on November 27, 2010, 08:56:22 AM
Unfortunately, that's something we'll probably never be able to confirm or deny, and that's probably the worse part of all of this. Even though a lot of us still have a great deal of trust in the Miner Wars project, that trust has still been shaken. :|
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on November 27, 2010, 09:36:05 AM
That was my first thought... it looked like they were planning to keep up the charade until the game's release, but they got cold feet.  If that's true... well, at least they're honest enough to get cold feet :P.  (A truism: if something looks too good to be true, it probably is.  I think only one person here (you know who) saw that...)
But I don't think there are many companies for any product nowadays that would be decent enough to get cold feet.

On the other hand, I have seen miscommunication like this happen unintentionally, like I said before, so that isn't unreasonable.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: VANGUARD on December 20, 2010, 09:19:12 AM
I kind of side with Foil. I haven't kept up on all of the news, just skimming some of these posts and replies.
To ask for money isn't bad, but it can be a con. Sure, a con artist can ask for money, you give it to them, and whatever they offer could be good.
Maybe I am reading this all wrong, but pretty soon, a con artist may offer a little more than before, and ask for more money. Pretty soon, you may shell out more money than anyone should, and at some point, the website packed up and disappeared.
and now, you spent a certain amount of money for a game that really isn't even finished and can't be played online.

I'm just skeptical of things. and I haven't read it all. hopefully I am making some sense.

update: I read their message. Sounds more fishy than not. It's like a hook, line and sinker. maybe they're honest, maybe they're not. All I know is, I don't intend to buy ANYTHING from them until I see some official game that is available, maybe in stores, and hopefully honest reviews.

I believe Frictional is some independent store. They're pretty good, with Penumbra, and Amnesia: Dark Descent.
They are cheap games, but they work, they're official.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Ronin RedFox on December 20, 2010, 08:40:57 PM
I've not been following Miner Wars at all. It's cool, but I've not really seen enough of it to make me want it. (And yes, perhaps there is a video or something that can change my mind.)
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: VANGUARD on December 21, 2010, 06:28:55 AM
the videos are pretty neat. I don't plan to touch anything until I know it's officially out, and people are happy with it.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Ronin RedFox on December 21, 2010, 06:58:23 AM
Im with you.  ;)
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: VANGUARD on December 21, 2010, 07:23:32 AM
Foil could easily be right about the things he said in this post. I don't think it's negative to think that a company may con you or just fail to stay alive. I call it reality.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Kaiaatzl on December 21, 2010, 08:48:36 AM
I understand your point of view: you should always be leery of anything that sounds too good to be true... which this definitely does, to us at least.

I still think a deliberate con is unlikely for the reasons I posted above: mostly because there are a lot of bigger audiences they could target.  I think even the community for the original DooM is bigger than this one.  If they fail I would see it as far more likely that it's an indie company biting off more than they can chew (so they choke and die :P).

From what I've seen of the pre-alpha, it looks like they can pull off at least most of what they said they would.  A lot of high-profile game development and investment people have shown interest in the game and think it has potential (and obviously think it will be finished).  And I have some more selfish reasons to support them as well: If I can get on the team it will really help my personal career whether this game gets finished or not.

So yes, it's a quandary for sure.  I'm glad I know what I'm going to do.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: VANGUARD on December 21, 2010, 10:03:38 AM
I'm not smart I know, but maybe a con thinks he and/or she can con fans/general public more than other companies. and I would think companies would sue them if the con got caught.
I don't know if it works that way or not. I suppose cons could easily disappear or not be touched if a company found out they're no good.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: Scyphi on December 21, 2010, 11:32:35 AM
I'm holding off on buying it myself, as given all that's happened, it seems like the wise thing to do.

Although, not having a system that can run Miner Wars helped with that choice, admittedly. :P
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: VANGUARD on December 21, 2010, 12:14:00 PM
that's partially the reason why in my case, and I have other games, etc that I do know are good, and in my very home, but just been too busy to get to.  Miner Wars just has to wait in line, if it's good and legit.
Title: Re: Miners Wars Beta
Post by: -<WillyP>- on December 21, 2010, 01:29:31 PM
The latest update looked good but too slow on my machine.  Just like D3 was on the old machine when I first played it.  :P