Planet Descent
From the Front Page => Soupe Du Jour => Topic started by: PyroJockey on October 12, 2009, 06:04:38 PM
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Back in a time when Descent was new my oldest son and I would spend countless hours stalking one another through the mines. I had my workstation in a home office upstairs while my son would use the family PC downstairs. We would take turns dialing in and selecting our favorite levels.
Most of the time I would prevail, I must admit a wicked satisfaction when I could hear him cursing after I ambushed him, again, and I would tolerate his triumphant victory dance up the stairs, hooting all the way, when he would turn the tables.
At some point I noticed a change in his patterns. Sometimes he would find me when I thought I was well hidden and other times he could not be found. I think it was my wife who clued me in as to what was happening. I had an infant daughter who’s bedroom was nearby and he was listening to me play over the infant monitor. Sneaky little bugger. He could hear the game sounds when I picked up an invul, and more important when it wore off, pick up a cloak, pass near the reactor, skim the lava, enter an energy center, and most important when I could hear him opening doors, picking up power-ups etc.
So what to do with this knowledge? Turn off the monitor? Hell no! I used DTX to extract some of the sounds and assigned them to different keys, such as the flare would play the invul powering up, etc… Well the game play changed after that. I could be chased down a tunnel into a dead end room with 1% shields, fire a flare and he would turn tail and run. This worked for quite some time until one day he was playing single player on my machine and fired a flare and heard the invul power up. :o Oh my God the look on his face when he put it all together and said “YOU CHEATED”! >:(
What do you think? :-\
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Cool story, Pyro. I think it needs to be "Soupeified" if it's alright with you. :)
I don't think it's cheating. It's exploitation, for sure, but it's not cheating. ;D
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Soup would be fine 8)
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Ahahahahaha, that story is amazing. :P
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I say the son cheated first, so this is perfectly fair. Give him a taste of his own medicine. :D
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I just find it hilarious. :D
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Golden tactics! Switch it up every week or so... 8)
Is there a way to make a sound play a COMPLETELY different sound, not even from the game? Like D3 where you drop in a sound file with the name of the original sound?
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LOL... Great story. I would certainly not call that cheating under the circumstance. I play in the same room, right next to the kid's machine. It's hard not to look! But that would be cheating.
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Definitely NOT cheating. As a competitor myself, you gotta do what you can to win.
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Is there a way to make a sound play a COMPLETELY different sound, not even from the game? Like D3 where you drop in a sound file with the name of the original sound?
If I recall correctly DTX will let you import sound files too, but that wouldn't have helped in this case. ;)
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It's more likely he cheated, then you let him hang himself, so to speak...
It's a fine line though, cheating, or just taking advantage of a situation. Would it be cheating in a tournament to listen for the sound coming out of the back of an opponents headphones?
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I think that'd depend on how close you are to said person, and how loud that person has his sound turned up.
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In the context of a tournament, or even, say, a lan party, someone should say "hey, man, everyone can hear". But I would not fault an opponent for using information gleaned in this manner. Now, using a baby monitor to spy... that would be another matter altogether.
Although in PyroJockey's story, it's not like his son planted the eavesdropping monitor, he simply availed himself of an opportunity that presented itself. Actually I think 'unfair advantage' is the term I would use, and nullify any results from those games.
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Revive.
Now that I look back at this, I think it is cheating on the son's part. That would be what most people would call "unfair advantages." If they can hear me and I can't hear them equally, I'd get ticked and do something about it. Technically, switching the sounds is legal because it is something that he could have done too. In my book, i say that "if we can both do it, it is not cheating (unless it's something really low)." For all you know, you could have been tinkering with the sounds one day, have him say you cheated, and have no clue what he was talking about.
Did you ever set one to sound like the Earthshaker? Try the vulcan or omega! :P
I should probably make a new topic, but...
I can't get the sound editor to install. I think it said that it can't find the correct files for something, but that might have been for something else. It was awhile ago. I'll find out tomorrow if you are reading this now. This will be edited out when I get the correct info.
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Cheating means breaking the rules. But some rules are 'unwritten', they are just understood to be there. This leaves a big grey area as to cheating or just taking advantage of a situation. I guess it depends on whether the participants had an understanding as to the unwritten rules, or, maybe, whether there was a reasonable expectation that certain unwritten rules would be followed.
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Maybe slightly off-topic, but NZ, I have to strongly disagree with you here:
In my book, i say that "if we can both do it, it is not cheating (unless it's something really low)."
I've heard that same rationale used to say that it's okay to do things like tweak a tablefile to remove weapon recoil, or change ship models to see things in the dark, or tweak network settings to make oneself skippy, or other "little" things.
"After all, the models / tablefile tools / network tools are freely available, so anyone can do it."
I don't think that's what you're saying, but that rationale can be misused.
A much better definition to use for multiplayer is: If it's a game setting (e.g. command-line options, in-game options) it's fine. Otherwise (e.g. file changes, outside tools, etc.), you're doing something to change the design of the game.
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(unless it's something really low)."
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I know you made the cavéat, NZ. But it still doesn't make it a good rationale. Mere mutual ability ("everyone can do it") just isn't a good measuring-stick for determining if something is okay, simply because it doesn't take into account whether or not something is outside the design of the game.
In other words, it allows people to say, "Well, everyone can do it", when it's something clearly in the realm of cheating (e.g. my examples above).
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Sure, I could... (and I am sure some have and maybe some do) Yet there is no written rule that says i can't do that. Unwritten rules are just as important as the written ones, but the problem is not everybody defines them the same.
We all understand the basic rules of the game well enough, but the baby monitor incident is unusual enough it requires a little thought, and (apparently ;) ) some discussion to really understand it fully.
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If it's a game setting (e.g. command-line options, in-game options) it's fine. Otherwise (e.g. file changes, outside tools, etc.), you're doing something to change the design of the game.
Good point. I did modify my install of Descent beyond that which was intended by the game designers. This practice could be extended by replacing subtle sounds made by opponents with louder more obvious and easily detectable sounds, which I definitely would consider cheating. Likewise one could also replace the dull gray ship textures with bright festive colors so opponents stand out against the darker backgrounds. (Not my style).
In this case I only modified the sounds that my Pyro generated and would under “normal” circumstances only be heard by me. I could have achieved the same effect by playing back the desired sounds via a cassette player (no MP3’s back then) or maybe set-up a soundboard, but remapping the keys was more convenient.
I did neglect to mention how my wife clued me in to the little eavesdropper. He took the receiver with him back to the family PC, which seemed sweet to her that he would care so much for his little sister. ::)
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I should clarify: I wasn't talking about your story, PyroJockey. As far as I'm concerned, you were simply teaching your son a lesson about playing honorably. :D I wouldn't think for a minute that listening in or changing sounds is something you've rationalized as 'normal'.
I was just responding to NZ's definition, because I've heard people use it. I remember one particular instance at a LAN, where a guy was caught with weapon and model alterations, and tried to defend himself by saying "anyone can do it".
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I agree with Foil and see his point, but in context I think I better understand NZ. Of course, this begs the question then: anyone can do it, so does that make using Mouselook right? Questions like that are particularly pertinent to your rationale. ;)
And to follow up with WillyP's comments, unwritten rules are not often well-clarified, and others are arbitrarily made. I think of one in particular related to Halo 2 (when I very occasionally play it). Most everyone considers it one of the best groundpounders ever made (whatever :P), but when you get online, you get banned or booted or just plain hated for using a "noob combo" such as the Battle Rifle and the Plasma Pistol (which together is downright brutal). How "do not use this weapon combo" became an unwritten rule to me is completely unclear - the player should not be responsible for such a flagrant unbalance of weapon power. Yet this is a rule arbitrarily made for those that think it's more honorable to win with a weaker weapon, for whatever reason. I see the same thing in Descent games in areas such as typekilling - just state whether it's legal or illegal and go with it. If you want to complain about getting killed while typing, well - don't type. ;)
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Type-killing is not illegal... as far as the game itself goes. Some Sys-Ops have made it a house rule and will ban you, usually after a few warnings. Most people consider it 'bad form', which is a whole 'nother matter!
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I hate how people just keep typing. Eventually they type so often I won't even care if they are or not. Another thing that ticks me off is when I start to type, someone immediately comes around the corner, I smoke them or they sucessfully disengage and say "you were typing!" Excuse me for being jumpy when someone starts shooting at me. It may be decieving, but I'm under attack! Final pet peeve is when I'm running someone down (*cough cough* The Best *cough*) and I demolish them and then they say type kill. Fortunately my truthful reputation and his idiocy works in my favor of my argument against that. Even got it on youtube. He now changed his name to The Worst. :)
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... Let's try to avoid directly referencing those players that you more or less dislike.
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However, there is certainly an exception to 'no type-killing' for anyone who abuses the privilege! If someone is using typing to avoid a fight, I say, 'fair game'! Or someone who thinks they are in a chat-room! Fair Game, suckas!
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Its using your surroundings to your advantage ;)
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I agree, kinda
For playing at home it was kinda clever.* I think I woulda done it once, then said 'hey look at this... I'm spying on you with a baby monitor! lol!' and we could'a had a good laugh.
*Of course, PJ's countermeasures were even more clever, kudos for that. ;)