Planet Descent
Community => Descent Single Player => Topic started by: NUMBERZero on August 25, 2009, 05:02:29 PM
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Yay! First post in this area too!
This pilot seems to have a bit of a thief problem. Any idea what's going on? :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AWOeYWfnlg&feature=response_watch
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I think he's got a defective save position.
If he worked through the levels again (fresh) ... I'll bet it doesn't happen to him a second time.
Unfortunately, I doubt he wanted to hear that. Hope he's got a saved spot from earlier in the level run. That would save some time.
So how did this happen? I think (repeat, think/guess/suppose) that he happened to be at the same spot the thief "appears" from time to time, or he and the thief happened to get "merged" (two objects bumped together just right allowing their object vertices to get hung up on each other). It can happen. You know that level where you hit a switch to reverse a fan, then enter the passage and the wind pushes you to the top of the passage where you can release a big rotating thing (heat sink?) that then drops down and destroys the fan on impact ... sometimes the guidebot gets "snagged" in that thing and ends up riding it down to the fan. Perhaps the same thing happened with this guy's pyro and the thief.
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Actually in a comment on another video that led to me finding this stated that he get's through the subway and it starts happening. Darc said in the IRC that it happens when a robot is outside of the level. He does it with the GB all of the time. I think I fully understand how that would work or how he is able to do that (MD it into the sky and duck behind a building so that is supposed to hit a wall?).
A simple explanation in my book would be that the thief is in another dimension and can attack you, but you can't.
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I think I'm with NumberZero on this one, as that's the only feasible explanation for it all, and it would explain why the thief seems to be "out of phase". If he were attached to the ship, you'd be constantly seeing him, hearing him, and probably be constantly taking damage as the game would more than likely consider it hit damage from bumping into each other. Instead, the video shows the thief appearing, and then vanishing again, like he just comes and goes.
What I don't get is how the thief could've gotten "outside" the level. I mean, I know the level isn't perfect in construction (we've all found plenty of flaws with it) but this is the first time I've ever heard of this happening, and I somehow doubt a robot of any AI level could've managed it on it's own.
Hmm...
I imagine a fresh restart of the level should fix it, as TechPro suggested. If not, then maybe there's something wrong with the game itself, but I'd somehow doubt it.
You do have to admit that it IS kind of cool, seeing a phantom thief flying around and attacking you. :P
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I don't think 'outside the level' is the answer. I have placed bots outside the level, and the level 'Deadly Maze' has hundreds of bots placed outside the level. Neither exhibited this phenomenon. Also, 'MD'ing a bot into the sky' would not put a bot out of the level.
I think... er, guess, ;) the memory registers became out of sync and the game was using the player's position marker for the Thief. There would be no damage as the Thief is not actually colliding with the player, just like someone riding in your car. It's a random anomaly, probably not happen again once the level is restarted, but if it does perhaps re-booting the machine would. If it still persists, I would re-install D3.
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It didn't happen just once. Multiple times. I guess it's his D3.
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Or maybe his video card drivers, or memory. ::)
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No, it's not a problem with his D3 or drivers, etc.
It's exactly what was suggested above, that the thief-bot got out of the level shell (possibly through the subway, or another hole in the shell somewhere).
You have to understand that D3 is highly room-based, and every object in the game has a room-flag that D3 uses to determine what to display, etc.
The problem occurs when an object doesn't travel from room to room through the normal portal faces, so the room-flag doesn't get updated properly. This of course happens when an object is outside the level shell.
Now, when an object's location is in a room, but its room-flag is pointing to another room, strange things can happen. Sometimes objects (or rooms, if you're the one flying outside the shell) don't get rendered. Sometimes it causes a crash (if you fly back into that room through a portal). Sometimes weapon collision-detections don't work right. And other weird stuff.
How do I know this? I dealt with teleport-crashes and other odd behavior because of room flags when I built the BreakOut mod. :)
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Ok, but that doesn't explain how the thief bot could appear at the same location as the player.
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Ok, but that doesn't explain how the thief bot could appear at the same location as the player.
Precisely the same reason. The thief was essentially flying through him without any 'bumps' because collision detection doesn't work for objects with different room-flags. He only saw glimpses of the thief when the thief was essentially on top of him.
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I suppose that makes some sense.
Now, what about placing bots outside a level, I've done it, so have others... the only effect I've noticed is that the bot in question could travel thru walls, in both directions.
The first level I made, I placed a Tubbs outside the level. He'd come and give me a whack or two then just casually wander off, completely disregarding any wall that happened to be in his way. It was pretty spooky, I'll tell you!
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Interesting! I wonder if that leaves the bot untied to any room... hmm.
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If that is true, you could make some cool levels with that ;)
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XD you wouldn't believe what happened on Lv 14 today! The same thing with the thief! Only better! With a frickin' Sharc! Got it on video too. I could never see it. I accelerated and flew around the clock room faster than it can when it is "in phase" and it still ate me. At least when I died, I took the bugger with me.
I guess it sort of just disappeared. It got behind be out of view and it started. I think it was beginning to fly through walls before too. I was getting around 15 FPS (thanks to CRAPS) if that had anything to do with it.
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If that is true, you could make some cool levels with that.
Concurred, a possible Halloween-themed level, perhaps? ;)
Of course, purposely exploiting a bug could potentially lead to more bugs. :P
And to answer WillyP's question, I think I know why you got different results with your Tubbs. I'm thinking that because you purposely placed them outside the level when building it, that's where they started from and lacked, as Foil suggested, the right flags to produce it.
Our phantom thief, however, was bound to have started in an actual room that he was assigned to, all of which D3 knew and kept track of. The moment the thief got 'outside' the level, it sent D3 into a fit as the thief was in one spot, but it's records suggested otherwise and had conflicting data. It tried to make do, and viola! We have a phantom thief.
At least, that's how I'm guessing it worked, and that's presuming I understood entirely what Foil said about portals and flags and the such. Feel free to correct me if so need be. :)
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Interesting! I wonder if that leaves the bot untied to any room... hmm.
That was my theory. Somehow, he could find me, though. :o
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It took me hours and hours troubleshooting an related problem with one of my custom bots with custom ai.
Suddenly it attacked from outside the mine like a ghost (which could be seen if inside the room). I heard it sounds and I was hit but I couldn't hit that ghost bot myself. It goes in and out the mine. This bot could not be forgotten outside one, it was produced by a mat center only! So I did a very very deep look at the area where this center is. No problem at all. And believe me I'm know what a hole in the shell means and is. So I thought it is my custom AI which will produce this problem. Troubleshooting hours, days, weeks.. but I couldn't find that problem at all. I gave up to search for that. Then, one day, I found a list where some D3 problems listed. Look here: http://www.suncho.com/buglist.html
69. Name: Ghost Bots
Problem: The player will be attacked by a robot that does not exist, or can't be seen. Not sure which.
Trigger: Unknown.
Notes: These ghosts are usually "contact" bots, but ghost squids have also been reported. Seems it can happen on any level, both in Retribution and Merc. The robots are usually identifiable by their attack sounds, which play during the attack. After-burning away a few rooms usually seems to leave the ghost behind. The damage done by the ghost is much higher then normal.
So i don't believe that this is a self made problem, it's a random bug inside D3.
It's like said from someone before, the game has an object which is not linked to any room. This way it can't be handled anymore.
BTW, D3EditAV checks for (forgotten) objects outside the mine meanwhile.
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So in that case, any one of us could be right about what's causing this, or none of us at all.
In short, though, it is as Atan said; blame D3. It's all it's fault. :P
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Ok, we're talking different things here... in the case of the bot placed outside the level, you can see it, but you cannot run a few rooms away to escape... it will find you wherever you are.
And completely different from the OP's phantom Thief. But interesting concepts, all. ;)
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No, I think Atan's nailed it. We just don't know anything about it. :|
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I am sure Atan is correct in his case... What I am saying, we have discussed three different scenarios.
- The original post: A bot is co-located with the player. Player can sometimes see the bot, sometimes not. Player takes no damage from collision, but does interact with bot in other ways.
- My version has a bot placed outside the level, intentional or otherwise. The bot attains super-unnatural powers of traveling through walls, but is otherwise normal.
- Atan's version, where a bot may or may not be visible, and was not placed outside the level prior to level-start. This bot can also super-navigate through walls. Atan's bot was further-more immune to attack, yet was capable of attacking.
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Atan's version sounds the same as the first version to me...am I missing something? ???
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Ok, I'll type in all caps so you can hear me... no, just kidding... BUT:
From the video linked in the first post:
A Thief appears inside of me, steals some of my stuff, and disappears. As you can see in the video, gunboys and seeker mines do not react.
Suddenly it attacked from outside the mine like a ghost (which could be seen if inside the room). I heard it sounds and I was hit but I couldn't hit that ghost bot myself. It goes in and out the mine.
Clearly, "A thief appears inside of me" is NOT the same as "Suddenly it attacked from outside the mine". It could be related to the same bug, who knows. But to me it is a completely different set of parameters: Atan's own made level vs Retribution Level 4, and completely different action, appearing inside a player vs coming from outside a level.
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To quote a quote from Atan...
69. Name: Ghost Bots
Problem: The player will be attacked by a robot that does not exist, or can't be seen. Not sure which.
Trigger: Unknown.
Notes: These ghosts are usually "contact" bots, but ghost squids have also been reported. Seems it can happen on any level, both in Retribution and Merc. The robots are usually identifiable by their attack sounds, which play during the attack. After-burning away a few rooms usually seems to leave the ghost behind. The damage done by the ghost is much higher then normal.
Note the description of the problem, which describes it possibly being both an intangible bot wandering around (like what you describe WillyP), and an unseen bot that can seem to attack the player without appearing to have approached (like our Phantom Thief). I would think this bug alone could account for both bugs.
I suppose it doesn't really matter how this bug works in the end, though, because it all boils down to the same thing: we don't have any real clue as to what's causing this. That much I think we can agree on.
The question we should really probably be asking now is: did the guy ever manage to fix his Phantom Thief problem? ;)
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No, the phenomenon I describe is a very real bot, it exists, it was place by the level designer. The only difference is that is was placed outside the level, that is, not inside any room. And somehow that give the bot the power to pass thru any wall. Other than that it is a perfectly normal bot!
And we do know the exact cause of my scenario, it is caused by placing a bot outside the level. This is not a D3 bug!
The other two phenoms are not caused by this same cause. Atan has stated that a bot could not have been placed, or have somehow gotten outside his level, and if Atan says this is so, I trust it to be true. I think it is unlikely the thief was placed outside L4, surely someone would have found that out and it would be well known.
It's possible, based on what has been said here, that Atan's anomaly could be caused by the same cause as the OP. But given the different symptoms, I think it is rather unlikely. It would be like, one guy says he has a headache, another says he has a sore elbow. To the first you recommend Tylenol, to the second an ice pack.
But I agree, we are getting a bit off topic...
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Feh...I've missed something somewhere here, but oh well, little point in trying to sort it out now... ::)
I repeat my earlier question...did the guy get it fixed, and rid himself of the phantom thief? Does he know what happened and why?
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The only difference is that is was placed outside the level
Willy, where is this information from?
See my attached picture. I really don't know how this happened in that video, but what I can do is to open L4 an have a look. What I can see there is, that the thief is placed inside the level. I can't find (did a quick look) any thief outside. But if I use Verify I can see lot's of possible possibilities how an bot could go outside.
Hope this helps even if I can't see any sense inside this little discussion ;)
It is as it is..
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I also wouldn't discount the possibility that a bot with an incorrect room pointer could behave very differently whether in another room or out in terrain areas (like the L4 video).
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Here's what he said in a PM to me after I showed him the link to this page.
"well, I just finished that level with basic equipment. It never occured in following levels. And sorry, I can't check if it's just that this one time something went wrong while loading a level or if it's a static bug - I uninstalled D3. I installed this game many times, went through it many times, and it happened only once, so I guess it won't happen again.
I had no saves from before level 4. Ha."
Guess it only happens rarely. My bad. I had said it happened multiple times. :-[
Coincidence is that it happened to him while he was recording. REAL coincidence was when it happened to me with a Sharc on Lv 14. I was recording too and it was laggy. I never saw the sharc inside of the ship, I was recieving damage rapidly. The thief is supposed to go and steal weapons and back off for a while whether it's being shot at or not. Maybe that's why it seems to attack so stagardly. Sharcs I think will go for you if you don't move or shoot.
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The only difference is that is was placed outside the level
Willy, where is this information from?
See my attached picture. I really don't know how this happened in that video, but what I can do is to open L4 an have a look. What I can see there is, that the thief is placed inside the level. I can't find (did a quick look) any thief outside. But if I use Verify I can see lot's of possible possibilities how an bot could go outside.
Hope this helps even if I can't see any sense inside this little discussion ;)
It is as it is..
Sorry if it was unclear, what I am saying is that in my own level, I accidently placed a bot outside the level. And that is a different case than described by you and by the Original Poster. To me, this means three different scenarios.
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Coincidence is that it happened to him while he was recording. REAL coincidence was when it happened to me with a Sharc on Lv 14. I was recording too and it was laggy.
Perhaps the fact that you were both recording when this happened is a clue. Possibly something about recording or being laggy while recording triggered a fluky condition.
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a fluky condition
IMO that's the point. In special cases this can happen.
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Yeah, I think we nailed it, that could explain for everything. :o
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I still think it's in another dimension. ;)
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MMmmm...! I could really go for another dimension...
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I see quite a discussion turned up.
Well, just to clarify things - It didn't happen when I was recording, but the other way around. It happened, I started looking for a clue on the Internet, finally decided to record this entire incident. For some reason I attract bugs, as you can see in Far Cry 2 and Supreme Commander videos on my Youtube profile.
I found my Descent 3 discs, used the same configuration of everything, I basicly rebuilt previous installation... not just reinstalled. I started the game, got to level 4, and the Thief was fine, not bugged. So I guess it's either bad loading, resulting in corrupted save? Or what you guys were talking about.
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This'll probably just end up as one of those unsolved mysteries of life.
Like...do aliens really exist?
Whatever happened to Amelia Earheart?
What is the meaning and purpose of life, the universe, and everything?
That sort of thing. This'll be right up there with the top ten. :P
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Descent 3 is littered with bugs, not all of which the community is aware of. It needs a serious code revamp, but that's not going to happen, at least right now.
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This'll probably just end up as one of those unsolved mysteries of life.
Like...do aliens really exist?
The answers are out there: Is President Obama an Alien --- a Real Alien? (http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2009/09/is-president-obama-a-real-alien/)
What is the meaning and purpose of life, the universe, and everything?
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Whatever happened to Amelia Earheart?
Voyager found her (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/VOY/episode/68858.html). Has to be true. I saw it on TV.
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I stand corrected. :P
Except for the meaning an purpose of life. You know the answer...but do you know the question? ;)
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LOL, nice. :D