Planet Descent
Community => Mess Hall => Topic started by: VANGUARD on April 27, 2011, 09:43:11 PM
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I don't normally get too serious on here. I like to play things a bit on the light side. I can't say I would request this to be the new soupe du jour, but if so, I think this may be one of the only ones I could come up with that I would think could be suited for it.
Anyways,
I was at work when I came across a video that talked about 300+ people believing it's the end of the world on the 21st of May. I personally don't believe in it. I believe there are a series of things that need to happen that is mentioned in the bible. What is hard to swallow is that there are people who are ready to quit their jobs or have already.
I obviously can't tell people what to do, what to believe in.
I don't believe it will end, neither will this world end on 12.21.12, but there are those that will believe in that no matter what.
If you do, you do.
But it did get me thinking today. Just supposing the end of the world was coming up, and we wasted too much time with technology and not enough time with friends. Even if the world will continue to exist for 500 years, we won't.
I look back and think of the wasted things I have done. I don't expect people to treat each day like it's the last day. I don't expect people to just suddenly feel like they have to go on some wild road trip and spend all of their money.
But is it worth going through life and not spending more time with others? or whatever else is important to you?
Once my job ends, which is the 11th of May, I am not going to waste my time on the internet like I have been there. I will do what I can to enjoy life, despite what happened to me in the past.
Who knows, human nature. I may forget this in a day and go on through life like I always have.
Maybe this is a pointless topic. Maybe it isn't.
I just hope you all are enjoying life and I know times can be tough. It doesn't mean toss it aside. Keep what is best, hard or not. Toss out the junk.
That's just my two cents.
Thanks for being good friends. Hopefully I'll get a descent 3 iMac disc and see you in the mines.
~~Vanguard
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Definitely something to think about. I'm not so consistent on the forums anymore, because I'm quite active outside of the interwebz (and right now, I'm kind of addicted to Metroid: Other M ;)). Actually, yesterday, there was a huge line of storms that pummeled the Southeast, and over 90 tornados shredded the state of Alabama alone, leaving 130 dead and counting. One of these came right by my girlfriend's family's house, where I was (I'm considering writing a soupe about this experience, but that's for later).
Being so close to death and witnessing the destruction, I must say that it helps me answer these questions. Am I really spending my life the way I should spend it? Or am I wasting it? It's always a tough thing to think about. In a moment, I'm leaving to clean up some of the destruction in Arab, Alabama. Hopefully that will put things into perspective for me. :D
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(I'm considering writing a soupe about this experience, but that's for later).
i sort of sense a certain amount of sarcasm, or something. :-[
but about that tornado, that's too bad. Once again, we're getting hit by a lot of them.
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Vanguard
The good part is that life on earth has about a billion years remaining so you have plenty of time to be with friends. As for me, and assuming a life on earth ending asteroid was going to hit earth near where I live, and since it would be pointless to run or hide, I would want to be at ground zero while using my technology to communicate with my friends the awsome event barrelling in toward me. I would stand in awe with my arms outstretched. :)
Then, after were gone, the earth itself will go on for another 6 or 7 billion years totally devoid of any form of intelligent life before finally being consumed by the ever expanding sun.
Enjoy your summer but if you really want to do something that makes you feel good, then make a difference to some person, some place, or some thing. Honestly, I found your post inspiring and I felt good reading it.
Bettina
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The good part is that life on earth has about a billion years remaining
Unlikely.
so you have plenty of time to be with friends.
Certainly less than you are suggesting.
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I can get better responses from the magic 8 ball. :) Care to get into more detail? I'm always willing to correct myself if I'm wrong.
Bee
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I agree with that, Bet.
Why so negative, Diedel? That wasn't really Bettina's point at all (nice to see you again, too, Bett, as always :)).
Besides, I did some research, and it turns out that she's right. Assuming, of course, that nothing like an asteroid strikes the Earth or we don't blow up ourselves, evidence suggests that life on Earth would likely continue for another billion years or so until the Sun, as it starts to grow old and turn into a red giant, heats up the Earth too much and life as we know it will no longer be able to survive.
Earth itself, however, probably wouldn't survive the suggested six to seven billion years as the sun continues to age and expand after that point, due to tidal forces the sun would exert on the planet probably being enough to tear it apart. But I suppose that wouldn't really matter anymore by then, now would it, because we humans would be long gone.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Life_cycle) explains all of the above in a bit better detail.
Anyway, as for Vanguard's comments, I have to commend you on your deep thinking, and I certainly agree that sometimes people loose sight of what's really important and get distracted with things really aren't. And I can certainly understand having to limit interaction on the Internet in favor of a life. Really, it's kind of a miracle I personally have managed to stay as active for as long as I have and still get by with life. Sometimes I'm really not sure how I do it. ::)
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The world ends in 2012. Once the Earth lines up with the galactic center, it's all over.....OH WAIT! That happens every year at the same time! Nevermind then! XD
I also agree with Bett. Plus she knows how to go out in style.
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I doubt it will last billions of years. I don't know if I mind one way or another. Some day, I'll be with the Lord. I'm glad you enjoyed the post Bettina, and hello again. and thanks to anyone else who enjoyed it.
I'm not worried. I am just tired of wasting my time on things that don't really matter. Even if the world is around for a billion years, we won't be. 100 some years max.
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Apologies, I had no intention of sounding sarcastic. Your post just so happened to the subject of my thoughts here these past few days. :) I just meant that I thought about soon posting a soupe about the experience I had being one of the first responders to the disaster area of an EF5-class tornado. It makes you look at life as far too precious to (only) spend surfing the net and watching TV. Sadly, the opportunity to go to Arab, AL fell through, but I would certainly ask for the thoughts and prayers of those on this forum. Alabama is in great distress, with over 130 people dead (last I heard) and hundreds are without homes or transportation or both.
On the unrelated subject, I more or less agree with Karx, but for spiritual reasons (though if the Lord wants to come back in five billion years, then more power to Him). :P
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it's okay. sometimes it's hard to tell on here.
About the tornado, I know, I saw some pictures, and how many died. I don't even want to imagine how hard the survivors have it. I thought it was bad enough having my dad pass away and me moving into my sisters house. That does not compare to what happened in Alabama, by far.
We can always pray, we can always ask.
We all think differently about the end of the world. Some think it's 5-21-11, some think 12-21-12, some think 10 years, some think a billion.
I just hope people don't quit their jobs (and I'm sure a lot did during all of these "It's the end of the World" speeches).
Imagine the nightmare, quitting a job, spending all of your money, maybe even leaving your house and going on some road trip only to discover.........."life is still going on."
If I see the end of the world, "if", not "when", I hope to be wise about it, and not just give up on all sorts of stuff and wait.
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...If I see the end of the world, "if", not "when", I hope to be wise about it, and not just give up on all sorts of stuff and wait.
Very well said. ;)
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Concurred, that's probably the biggest thing we should all be walking away from this with. :)
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I will simply say that I don't buy into any doomsday preachings, and that I shall simply live every day to its fullest regardless, and never just give up. There are very few ways to lose in the game of life (u c wut i did thar?). Giving up is one of them.
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I'm not trying to enforce or, make myself look better, but I need to re-read this topic I created. My head is spinning. I need help. I need advice, and I have no where to turn. Everyone I have spoken to, have heard it 1000 times,
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I have one thing to say:
Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.
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very nice
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I'm not trying to enforce or, make myself look better, but I need to re-read this topic I created. My head is spinning. I need help. I need advice, and I have no where to turn. Everyone I have spoken to, have heard it 1000 times,
Advice on dealing with the end of the world? Ignore it, it's a load of crap. Treat it no different than any other day, except maybe being a bit more careful of loonies. God will end the world when he wants to, if that's what you believe. You can't predict it, and you can't prevent it even if you can, so why bother worrying?
Seriously, Vanguard, you're kind of starting to scare me. What's up?
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I'm not worried about the end of the world stuff. it's present/personal stuff going on
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Since Planet Orange took the liberty of quoting scripture...
James 1:5-6 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."
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Yes, one who lives without a direction in their life, is doomed to be tossed and drifted by whatever happens.
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I agree with that, Bet.
Why so negative, Diedel?
I am not negative, my very young Padawan, I am realistic.
Even if life would last another billion years on this planet, it is
a) rather unlikely that it would be human life
b) wouldn't give you a billion year's time to spend with your friends
unless you believe in rebirth, that is, which would be highly unscientific, and you were better off believing the Bible then.
In that light Bet's comment was rather ... confused. Now I remember some of her concepts of life, the world and everything from about two years ago, and that also was quite a crude mixture of philosophy and humanism with some esoteric flavor.
Since Planet Orange took the liberty of quoting scripture...
James 1:5-6 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."
Now if this had anything to do with this thread ... posting quotes from the Bible just for the heck of it is pointless.
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Since Planet Orange took the liberty of quoting scripture...
James 1:5-6 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."
Now if this had anything to do with this thread ... posting quotes from the Bible just for the heck of it is pointless.
If it was "just for the heck of it" it would be pointless, but it is relevant (IMO) and very applicable. Obviously, the OP indicates that Vanguard has some religious/biblical beliefs. So does Scyphi and the scripture Scyphi quoted is very good advice to anyone who has religious/biblical beliefs. The scripture Planet Orange quoted advises believers to not be sucked in to "the end is tomorrow" thinking and instead live each day to enjoy it while also living in a manner that each us of might be ready to "meet our maker" instead of procrastinating until too late.
It apparently doesn't seem to mean anything to you and that's OK but it means something to others.
Getting back on topic...
Vanguard, I think it's very commendable that you were thinking about what you've accomplished in our life thus far, and also about the wasted things you've done. I'm very glad that you've decided to try to not waste time so much, and that you're going to be trying to enjoy life and opportunity. I hope you are enjoying life even though (as you said) times can be tough, and I hope the same for everyone else here.
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True, but if we are going to discuss religion then we should discuss politics, too.
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thanks techpro. I'm working on it, and as far as my job is concerned, I am praying hard that I am doing the right thing about leaving it. It has caused me stress in a way I have not felt before. Maybe I'm a weakling. Maybe so many other people go through this and toughen up about it.
It's a small company, so you run into certain people often enough. The boss use to yell a lot to me, and because of that, I use to feel so sick to my stomach, I'd almost feel like throwing up.
Sometimes, even now, just the thought of him on my case for whatever, I'd get so nervous and almost nauseous . Even at home, if someone would do or say something, and I'd have NO fear over them, I'd instantly feel nauseous again.
update: The odd thing is, I think it's personal. The boss wants me to get something done by a certain date, and will be on my case a lot. And the other worker can go on and on and on without doing it, and certainly not busy, some of this is what I am waiting on so I can continue with the projects. But does he get after him? no. not at all. they go out to lunch, talk in the boss's cubicle about whatever. /end update
It has improved some, but I have no interest in the job. no interest in what they say about the company. and I can spend 5 hours plus on the net because there is nothing else to do, and that is BORING. Thus is why I have posted on here a lot lately.
I am praying I can get a car soon because my truck is falling apart and is already $700 a month on payments+gas.
I am losing this job soon I believe, and I know it may sound crazy to try to get a car instead of a truck, but the car would be cheaper and less expensive at the pumps.
I'm under a bit of stress. I know I know, I am a weakling.
sorry about that conversation.
WillyP, I thought we had discussed politics at times. I understand the no political/religious sort of conversations. I do apologize that my topic may have veered off in that direction. I was hoping it'd just stay more of topic with the "don't worry about life. just enjoy it, and spend time wisely".
Probably my fault.
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TechPro,
your attempt to connect Scyphi's quote to the other one looks a little too far fetched for me. :)
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WillyP, I thought we had discussed politics at times. I understand the no political/religious sort of conversations. I do apologize that my topic may have veered off in that direction. I was hoping it'd just stay more of topic with the "don't worry about life. just enjoy it, and spend time wisely".
Probably my fault.
lol, I got jumped on from at least three directions just for posting a link to a political article. And, i don't see anything wrong with anything you wrote.
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i didn't think I jumped on you. I thought I was just making a statement. lol
I read in some forum that it can be hard to read people online. It sure can be true.
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Vanguard,
you are not a weakling. Don't let this get further under your skin. If your boss is yelling at you, then it is massive abuse and he is a disrespectful bastard and shouldn't be a boss, period. Being a christian doesn't mean you must not call things what they are. If your boss has a superior himself, talking to that person might help; but better to leave that company and find a better job before it totally ruins not just your physical, but also your psyche's health. I don't think you should pray a lot about that, and I doubt God wants your health to be damaged there. Better pray that God will give you a good new job. The only important thing is to forgive and let God be the judge - that will do miracles for your health and chances in the next job. :)
karx
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thanks for the message. I believe it will end on the 11th of May. It has been since Oct of last year. I can't believe I made it this long. I am hoping and having faith, God Willing, I can leave on the 11th and be done with it. I will hopefully have a better job. Anytime I think I should stay, I just end up feeling 10x worse.
They may wish to extend the contract. I am hoping they don't.
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thanks for the message. I believe it will end on the 11th of May. It has been since Oct of last year. I can't believe I made it this long. I am hoping and having faith, God Willing, I can leave on the 11th and be done with it. I will hopefully have a better job. Anytime I think I should stay, I just end up feeling 10x worse.
They may wish to extend the contract. I am hoping they don't.
Go talk to your boss's superior if he has one. He has no right to yell at you. I think he is abusing you as his doormat because he believes he can do it with you. I don't think that as christians we always have to suffer everything others are doing to us. Sometimes we have to defend ourselves, just in a good way. So prepare it in prayer together with other christians you trust and talk to the man's boss.
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I am through a temp agency service and I doubt they were much help, being I am still here. I have spoken to them a few times about this.
Like I said, a SMALL company. My guess is, everyone gets along great with each other, and then there's me.
I did stand up for myself a couple times. I am not going to put up with the b.s. and maybe that's partially why he toned it down some.
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True, but if we are going to discuss religion then we should discuss politics, too.
Yes, but there is a notable difference between the two. Religion doesn't necessarily HAVE to be an argument. Politics, however, is just another word for arguing. :P
I get what you mean, though. ;)
@ Karx: You've made some good comments in your past couple posts, and I must agree with them. However, in my defense for the scripture quoting, regardless of what you might think, I did not quote that scripture "just for the heck of it." I did indeed have an ulterior motive for posting it, and it was really directed at Vanguard for reading, as I'd figured he'd understand what I was implying with it. My reference to Planet Orange's earlier scripture quote was my way of saying that because he did it without any negative aftereffects, it left me feeling comfortable enough to add in my own. But again, it wasn't "for the heck of it".
I mean no offense to you at all with any of this, so please don't take any. I just want to get this apparent misunderstanding cleared up.
@ Vanguard: I agree with Karx, sticking with this job isn't worth it, not for the treatment you're getting. If going to the powers that be is of no help, then I think going to find new employment is more than justified. :)
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the only sad thing is, nice pay. that will hurt. and I have tried so many times over the months to deal with the b.s., and the 'sick to the stomach' feeling. The pay is what will hurt, but I must also have faith that I will be fine afterward. God has helped me and my family/friends though as very rough part when my dad was in the hospital.
I shall continue to believe He will help. I must do the right thing, and I believe I will know the answer soon with my job. And soon, I may once again be somewhere better :)
There may be a reason I have this job for now, and that may be so I can get a car. After that, this job may not be worth it.
Thanks again for everything. I have spoken some to someone else last night about something that has bugged me. It is, for now, maybe for a long time, resolved.
This day certainly is looking brighter.
Another reason not to think of ending your own life, not that I was. I can't even imagine thinking about thinking about it. Did I say that right?
Anyways. I should go, got some work now. thanks again!
update: I hate giving false information, even with trying to make a point. I think most except for the boss, likes me, but I sometimes feel excluding from things. like the big boss will take some out to lunch, but not me. use to be that he did. But I think he likes me, we get along.
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Scyphi,
it just appeared to me like to quoted something just to quote something. Np if I was wrong I definitely don't feel offended, and you replied in a very polite way, which I notice, acknowledge and appreciate. :) It might have helped saying a bit to your quote, making the intended application clearer to the audience.
Vanguard,
no pay in the world is it worthed being yelled and abused by a boss. I think you are still young. Don't be afraid to risk something and change jobs.
I did stand up for myself a couple times. I am not going to put up with the b.s. and maybe that's partially why he toned it down some.
Tada! You see?
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+1 for Karx, and totally agreed with the Scriptures that Scyphi and Planet Orange posted (off topic, but Planet Descent has got to be the most respectful board I've ever been on, even on the topic of religion). If the environment is bad, then there's not paycheck that can make up for it. Money can't buy happiness, and loving your job is far more important than the paycheck you make, in my humble opinion.
Not all things are necessarily good in and of themselves, but "all things work together for the good of those who love Him." If it's time for a move, it's time to commit that move to God's hands and step out, knowing that wherever He puts you is greater than where you are right now, even if the pay is slimmer.
But remember, you only have two cheeks to turn. You're not forced to work for anyone, and while you certainly should not retaliate with disrespect or slander, you should stand up for yourself and do what is best for you. Misery isn't in your job description, and therefore it shouldn't be something tolerated merely for a fat paycheck. If you can work it out with your boss, then fantastic - if you can't, then look elsewhere for a career. Only you know what is best for you, and only you can make those decisions.
Seek God's wisdom, then get it done. ;)
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Vanguard,
no pay in the world is it worthed being yelled and abused by a boss. I think you are still young. Don't be afraid to risk something and change jobs.
x2 on this, Van.
I personally took a significant pay cut a few years back to get away from a crappy job/employer. Let me tell you, I have NEVER regretted it. It not only cut my stress significantly, it allowed me to find my current (awesome) workplace.
Thus, my advice: Do it, get out.
P.S. Don't you EVER think that getting away from a crappy job is "weakness". Quite the opposite, actually. It takes courage and strength to make the jump when you don't know exactly what's ahead. Good luck.
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the ONLY thing stopping me is "what if I don't find a job and there's no unemployment."
I am leaning sooooooooooooooooooooooo close to leaving this place on the 11th of May.
I know what you've all been saying, and I appreciate it. I'd be lying if I said I disagree on a lot of that. I left a job once because I didn't like what a temp agency said. "You're there only one week." not the best pay, and 25 miles+ to get there with my Ford F250, was hurting me.
I figured, one week, that's nothing. But he soon said "stay there until I find you something else."
I'm at work hearing others saying to others "you think you're here a week? man, been here 6 months."
I still left the job after Friday. he was not happy and is no longer helping me find a job. I lost unemployment. Somehow, I was still okay. God provided though. I am praying God will do this again.
I am preparing myself for the plunge.
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Don't you EVER think that getting away from a crappy job is "weakness". Quite the opposite, actually. It takes courage and strength to make the jump when you don't know exactly what's ahead. Good luck.
Couldn't have said it better!
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yeah. it's quite the risk. if I leave it, and there's no jobs available, I am sort of S.O.L.
One day soon, this will end.
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In that light Bet's comment was rather ... confused. Now I remember some of her concepts of life, the world and everything from about two years ago, and that also was quite a crude mixture of philosophy and humanism with some esoteric flavor.
I didn't realize you were Diedel but your comment is typical of what you used to say on the other forums you once were allowed to attend.
Vanguard. I will come right out and tell you that I don't believe in the bible God and I don't believe I ever did. However I still believe in the church and I go every Saturday evening or Sunday because I've always had a personal relationship with Jesus.
If you want some very good and very free advice I recommend you talk with a priest. You're not going to get peace of mind on any forum even though PD is the best of them all. I have a priest and a chaplain that I talk with frequently and they've helped me cope in many ways on many problems I had in my life.
Bettina
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I appreciate your free advice, coming from a forum :P
I can't tell you if I am hoping to get advice or simply to vent. I appreciate what everyone has said. Normally I'd agree with you. Forums aren't really the best way to ask for help. Those Q & A's aren't either, and in some cases, worse. You have no idea who is giving you advice, who is being real about it and who is kidding around.
However, I believe God can use anyone He chooses, even a non-believer. Even a person who doesn't even think He exist. And before you think I am talking about you or anything, I am not. I am merely pointing out that maybe, someone in this forum, or a group of people have been sent from God to help me on this case. Maybe not.
I believe everything happens for a reason. Be it a smart person or a dumb person, rich or poor, man or woman, tall or small, quiet or loud, etc etc, I believe God can use that person.
And don't worry everyone, I know that on May 11th, maybe sooner, I will know exactly what to do. I don't know if I mentioned this or was going to write a longer post and ended up erasing it, but I don't normally get into stuff like this on a forum. But this is making my head spin. I have had no jobs before, no good reliable car. I have lost a father and a house.
I feel like this is different. It's like in a way, it's my choice. I can say "yes, I'll stay at the job" or "no, I won't."
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In that light Bet's comment was rather ... confused. Now I remember some of her concepts of life, the world and everything from about two years ago, and that also was quite a crude mixture of philosophy and humanism with some esoteric flavor.
I didn't realize you were Diedel but your comment is typical of what you used to say on the other forums you once were allowed to attend.
Aaah, just tell they guy that nothing he says has any value anyway. As far as I can remember I have hardly ever (if at all) done more in the past that just silently shaken my head at your wild mix of life philosophy.
It is not hard to see through the tender and sensitive appearance you are trying to give yourself. You have turned into a rather arrogant young person. It is typical for such people that when they have nothing substantial to respond, they instead resort to some cheap way of brushing off things they don't like to hear, like you just did.
Vanguard. I will come right out and tell you that I don't believe in the bible God and I don't believe I ever did. However I still believe in the church and I go every Saturday evening or Sunday because I've always had a personal relationship with Jesus.
Reading this is confirming that I was right on the spot with my above comment. If you had a true personal relationship with Jesus you wouldn't have any problems believing the Bible and in the God of Bible. Going to church doesn't make you a christian, and without the God of the Bible the church would be nothing and Jesus wouldn't mean a thing. Concluding from your not believing in the God of the Bible (and things you had said elsewhere), you neither accept the existance of sin nor the necessity and reality of salvation. From that alone it is pretty clear that you reject the most significant elements of true Christianity, and extrapolating from there I think it is safe to say that you don't even know what having a real relationship with Jesus means; otherwise you couldn't deny these things.
As I said, whether you like to hear that or not: your concept of the world seems pretty confused, and brushing anything off that tries to penetrate the walls of the illusions you have built up there (or to express it more scriptural: The spiritual strongholds in your mind) doesn't hurt anybody but yourself in the end.
Looking at all this, two scriptures are coming to my mind: One about people giving themselves an appearance of godliness, but rejecting the true God, and one about those people that call Jesus "Master" and use his name, but don't belong to him. If I was you I wouldn't want to belong to any of these categories, and right now you do.
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Deidel, Bet, both of you, drop it. It's not worth arguing over.
I feel like this is different. It's like in a way, it's my choice.
Because it IS your choice, and never was there a time when it wasn't. You, and you alone, can make the choice. No else will, nor should, make it for you. :)
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EDIT: Scyphi got to it before me. He's right. This debate helps no one. I doubt anyone convinced in their spiritual beliefs here is going to question them because some other forum member looked at their junk funny. Take the discussion elsewhere if it's that important to you. I'd hate to lock this thread after everything was going so well.
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Deidel, Bet, both of you, drop it. It's not worth arguing over
I am not arguing about anything. It's the truth that sets people free, and if nobody dares telling Beth the truth about her beliefs and attitude, she will hardly get a chance to start questioning them herself.
Since this thread has had its share of faith related postings already, I cannot see a problem posting more of that here.
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EDIT: I really don't have a problem with a discussion, it's just the delivery. I feel it's out of place here and nonconstructive. There is a fine line between encouraging someone to back up and assess their position and personally de-constructing what someone believes. Remember - we are on a forum about a computer game. If she's open to a discussion, send a PM. That's all I ask. Previous mention of spiritual beliefs were in encouragement of Vanguard's decision to make a job change; I appreciate your willingness to share your beliefs and to discourage Bettina from separating Jesus from the Biblical God, but perhaps here on a Descent forum your post comes off as heavy-handed.
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Excuse me that I took the liberty to reply to her publicly posted comment (which actually was an offense) in public.
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See my post above. :)
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Scyphi and D2Junkie.
You both have my sincere apologies. I should have ignored the comments and stayed focused on Vanguard because seriously he worries me. The last few of his posts seem less about venting and more about major depression and I have always liked the guy. This has nothing to do with whether you believe in God or not but more about helping a friend.
Mentally, I've been where Vanguard seems to be now, and I've received enormous help (and still do) from talking with my hospital chaplain - and although I'm an agnostic, I'm also a Christian and I'm going to stand by what I said to Vanguard. Everything else I apologize for.
Vanguard, please talk with someone.
Bettina
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I don't think Bettina did anything wrong. She just believes in something different than me, or in some cases, doesn't believe in what I do. But she gave advice, like many on here.
I think the reply to Bettina wasn't really necessary.
I know, some of us love and honor God. Some of us, even me, can't believe sometimes how anyone can not see how great God is. But, it's their choice. If they choose to go that path, so be it. If they wish to seek help, advice, whatever, then I hope and pray someone is there to lead them into the right decision.
D2Junkie is basically dead on,
edit/update: thanks Bettina. I may talk with the boss today, see what is going on. I plan to talk with more, my girl friend, maybe this guy friend if he is feeling better. maybe another if he isn't too busy.
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All is well, Bettina :)
I'm not upset with either you or Karx because this sort of discussion happens sometimes. Politics and religion, so they say. I'm just trying to remind everyone that A: Vanguard is in need of good advice, of which I think we all have given, especially both yourself and Karx, and B: This is a Descent forum. :)
INSERT: My apologies if I came across too harshly myself. I certainly hope I did not make it sound as if your input was unwelcome, Bet. It most certainly is welcome.
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is it safe to assume all is okay? I don't think I need to say much more. One day, I may have an answer. But I believe I got plenty of advice, a lot pointing in the same direction. I take each persons advice into consideration, and appreciate it all.
Sorry for making anyone nervous or worried about me. I am still alive. I know in a week, if less, I will probably know what is going on.
So, thanks again all, and hope all is well on your side.
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You cannot be an agnostic and a christian.
People, quite a few of you here are christians, and you don't have anything to say to that? This is not about proving oneself right and others wrong, this is about Beth being on a perilous path, and all you have to say "All is well!"
C'mon! What are you concerned about? Your being well received by everybody? You should be salt and light, and when the salt has lost its taste, it's worthless and will be cast on the ground.
D2Junkie, you weren't concerned about religious posts here before. What has changed? That now there's a conflict? I don't know whether you are a christian, but (maybe not even) if so, you should understand that the word of God will bring conflict, because it is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb. 4:12)
If you don't want religious posts here, then it's ok for me, but then please apply to all those and not arbitrarily or due to a judgment that is rooted dubious motivation. And please don't think I have a desire to strike at Beth because she has upset me. That's not the case. My words may seem harsh - unless you read them in the light of scriptural truth, and telling someone unconvenient truths doesn't necessarily mean being out to hurt someone.
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i know i'm just randomly jumping in here, but i read all the posts :P. Vanguard i fully back your inclinations to leave the job, you seem pretty decided on that already and i have faith that our Lord will bear you through this, plus whatever else may be weighing down on you at this time.
on a side note, i never thought i'd see the day when i would be fully behind something Karx said, but i am today :O actually this whole discussion makes me yearn for a "Deep Discussion" board where philosophical topics can be discussed and arguments (in the classical sense) can be held. it'd have to be exclusive, sort of like the NHB board on DescentBB but for philosophers (where posting privileges are revoked for flamers, and granted again for good behavior). i almost want to go make a poll. :P
also, edit:
You cannot be an agnostic and a christian.
i was leaning this exact way until i remembered the definition of a Christian: one who places his/her faith in that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God; and an agnostic is a person who says "we cannot know if there is a God" (or "do not know"). Since faith does not require knowledge, all that is requried is that Beth trusts the fundamental theological truth-claims of the Bible, not that she believes they can be known in the epistemological sense. Perhaps we can have "common knowledge" of God where prima-facie reasoning glazes over relatively small fissures of ignorance, but when you get right down to it, it kind of is a matter of what one decides to believe without really knowing one way or another.
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I almost find it hard to believe that even a tiny spark of debate is drawing such reactions. I would hope that as a community we're close enough that we can have a difference of opinion without it meaning that we're suddenly enemies. I take an extremely tolerant view on religions, but the one I cannot stand is those that thump their holy book of choice. It's one thing to respectfully promote your religion, but to blatantly call someone else's beliefs wrong is, well... wrong, and quite rude.
I found nothing wrong with Bettina's post, but Karx definitely came off as being rude to me. She could be a paganist for all I care, she's offering sincere advice from the heart, and that's one of the best things a person can do for another.
Now then... Can't we all just get along?
EDIT: Karx, it's not the fact that we're having a religious discussion, it's the fact that you're attacking Bettina's beliefs. Frankly, Bettina comes across as being a far nicer person than you are, and if she wants to think her way, let her. It seems to be working fine for her, which is more than I can say for you. A person's beliefs are their own business, and nobody else's. Who are we mere humans to say what's wrong and what's wrong?
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Canceler,
what you are saying about being agnostic contradicts scripture.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Heb. 1:11, King James)
Thus having faith means knowing that there is a God. Even if you would set the scripture aside, logic would tell you that you can only have faith in something you know exists, which by definition the agnostic does not.
And how do you want to separate Jesus from the God of the Bible? He is the God of the Bible!
IHateHackers,
I take you are not a christian. Christian faith by it's nature is exclusive. Now you are free to believe what you want to, and free to express your beliefs. But so are christians, and if there is a contradiction in beliefs, you need to at least bear the tension coming from that. What you however are doing is to deny others (me) the right to express my beliefs here.
As far as Beth is concerned: Her beliefs are a mixture of complete antagonisms and hence a failure of logic, and that is what I am pointing out. So to resolve this logical conflict she'd either need to say "I am agnostic" or "I am a christian", but not both, and that is what I have been trying to prove using scripture.
Sure does Beth come across nicer than I do, because she caters to your sight of the world, while I don't necessarily do (actually she tries to cater to everybody, telling the one side "Hey, I am agnostic" and the other side "Hey, I am a christian"; which tells me that she probably doesn't really know (yet) who and/or what she wants to be and believe). I prefer being approved by God over being approved by men though, and I am actually having peace about what I have posted here so far. What you don't seem to understand is that beliefs do not just exist - they have an influence on their surroundings, and I am not happy about the influence beliefs like Bettina's has on others.
Most people - including christians - are more concerned about being loved by their peers (and possibly everybody) than standing for their convictions. I am not trying to offend anybody here, but I will express my convictions if I see fit, and I will tell people when they went too far (like Beth with her initial comment directed at me, which is a foul and disgusting way of trying to drag all the crap from earlier days and other places in here for the simple purpose to discredit me and saving her the effort of having to deal with a critical point of view on her beliefs).
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Thus having faith means knowing that there is a God. Even if you would set the scripture aside, logic would tell you that you can only have faith in something you know exists, which by definition the agnostic does not.
And how do you want to separate Jesus from the God of the Bible? He is the God of the Bible!
The epistemological definition of knowledge is a belief backed by hard evidence. It IS possible to have faith without any of that kind of evidence. Many Christians the world around have been made by missionaries' testimonies alone. An agnostic says "we do not (or cannot) know if there is a God". Taken in the epistemological sense, the phrase "we cannot know" means there is not sufficient hard evidence to deductively prove God's existence or non-existence. Technically, then, it is possible to believe the truth-claims of the Bible without asserting that they can be deductively proven.
However, it is non-sensical to believe in the divinity of Jesus but not the Biblical God, since at every turn Jesus confirmed Scripture's theology.
It's one thing to respectfully promote your religion, but to blatantly call someone else's beliefs wrong is, well... wrong, and quite rude.
I believe it's right to tell someone their beliefs are wrong, if there is reason that contradicts their belief. Look to your own sentence to realize the logically inescapable nature of mutually exclusive truth claims. If you believe it's wrong to say someone else is wrong, then you must say that I'm wrong about my contrary belief, thus contradicting your own. It's a self-defeating point of view, and I encourage you to abandon it for a self-evident one, which, given only one alternative possibility, is mine. I mean this out of honest concern for your intellectual growth, I do not want to offend. If any of my comments get under your skin, please take a moment to consider the truth of my claims and the logical strength of my line of inference before saying I am insulting you.
I found nothing wrong with Bettina's post, but Karx definitely came off as being rude to me.
My personal analysis (I'm putting it here only because I believe I have something constructive to contribute):
Karx's initial comments against Bettina's philosophical outlook were his own assessment thereof, and may have been uninvited, but if you really look hard enough, you will not see any personal attacks. Bettina's direct response to that was pretty much a textbook ad hominem. I think people get bad vibes from Karx a lot (I know I did a lot) because he is more concerned with the truth than anyone's feelings, and can come across as a bit over-zealous when searching for it through (honest) argumentation. Honestly, though, after studying the fundamentals of philosophy and formal logic, I have much greater respect for Karx and would probably be acting the same way.
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Canceler,
Heb. 11:1 says that (christian, spiritual) faith is the evidence itself. ;)
I know that I can be so concerned about finding the truth that it can carry me away, but I think I have learned a lot in that regard in the past years and with all the (often negative) feedback I have gotten, and I think I have managed to convey my sight of the issue without being offensive or rude. I am also absolutely not the person to avoid unconvenient truths, and I have stood a lot of criticism in my life where other people have approached me later on and have told me they would have run from the situation as far as they could had they been in my skin.
The gospel however is an offense to many people (it states that itself), and that is something I cannot change.
And again: If religious discussion is not welcome here, I will respect that, but then it must be applied to all such posts, and not just to those the/some forum mods/admins do not feel comfortable about.
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That's where you're wrong canceller. I am a christian. And nowhere in the bible does it ever tell me "Force your beliefs on others". If you can find me god says that's right, be my guest and correct me.
There is difference between telling you that it is wrong to do ana ction to soneone else and telling you that your beliefs are wrong and that you must do this and believe this or you are on a "perilous path" (in other words that you're going to tell).
Karx, there is no "logic" in religion, because religion is entirely based on belief and folklore. If belief is the evidence, then not believing is evidence that it doesn't exist. Where is your logic now?
I'm not saying the gospel is offensive, nobody here is. What is offensive is trying to force it on somebody else. Does their belief affect you negatively?
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IHateHackers,
knowing that you are a christian, I have to say I am shocked about your attitude towards speaking out for biblical faith and facts. With your attitude you are actually denying other christians the right to testify and to speak out for their beliefs.
I am not forcing my beliefs on anybody here, and I really don't know what makes you think that. I do however present my convictions here, and I do point out weaknesses in other convictions.
You are also very wrong in your assumption that there is no logic in the Bible, or in Faith. You are having some very dangerous half knowledge and obscure mystical thinking there. First of all, biblical faith is not of the kind "I believe it may rain tomorrow". It is, as Heb. 1:11 states the evidence of truths (or facts) unseen. "Unseen" doesn't mean "non existent". It is very logical that you cannot have true, biblical faith in something that doesn't actually exist. Insofar being agnostic is completely antagonistic to being a christian. There you have your logic. ;)
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nowhere in the bible does it ever tell me "Force your beliefs on others"
I didn't force my beliefs on others...I didn't use force, I used logic. Concerning your personal stance that "it's wrong to tell others their beliefs are wrong", I already showed you why that's logically incoherent. Here it is simpler: my belief is that it's right to call some beliefs wrong. You perfectly exemplify my own stance by saying I'm wrong about that, thus you are wrong even in your own sight. I encourage you to abandon it because it is utter nonsense that is logically impossible to conform to.
nowhere in the bible does it ever tell me "Force your beliefs on others"
First order of business: claiming that I am (and maybe also Karx is) doing such a forceful thing is a Strawman Fallacy.
Second order of business:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
which requires telling people that their beliefs are wrong, if and when their beliefs are wrong.
Now just to clarify, you are perfectly free, if indeed willing, to reject everything I said and everything I'm arguing for. But as a logician, I must say, rejecting my conclusions without proper evaluation (first of the inference quality, then of the truth of the premises) is pooh-poohing, and in the practice of logic it is a recognized fallacy.
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Well said. :)
IHateHackers,
You could rightfully claim we'd be forcing our beliefs on others if we had physically bound them and would be only giving them the choice of conversion or death through sword or fire.
I think it is safe to say that this is neither what we're doing here, nor what we're all about. :)
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To me, that means "Go out and give them the tools they need to follow christ if they so choose". Not "Follow christ exactly as I say or you're going to hell".
You are not being forceful, canceler. Karx on the other hand, is.
There's a difference. I am telling your actions are rude and wrong, I'm saying nothing about your beliefs.
My beliefs are my own business. Christianity at its core is about my relationship with Christ. My relationship is nobody else's business unless I ask them, and likewise theirs is not mine. There is hardly a person in America who hasn't heard christian preachings before, especially someone who says they go to church. Therefore, for me or anybody else to continue preaching to them is unnecessary and unproductive. If they were going to convert or whatever is it you want them to do, they'd have done it the first 500 times.
You are trying to force them by telling them "you are wrong, change or go to hell". Not all force is physical, especially in something that exists entirely in the non-physical realm such as religion. The strongest forces of all are those of emotion and thought. You can force me to perform an action, you cannot ever force mt to think a thought or feel an emotion.
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I respond quite carefully as I say this:
I am a Christian, and, stated succinctly, I believe in a Jesus Christ that did in fact claim he was God ("Before Abraham was, I AM") and who claimed He is the only mediator through which we have a relationship with God ("I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life - no man comes to the Father except through Me"). As C.S. Lewis pointed out, Christ was either a liar, a lunatic, or He was Who He said He was. There's no "good man" or "good prophet" argument to be had here. To have a relationship with Christ is to have a relationship with the Father ("He who has seen Me has seen the Father"). On those point, therefore, I would find Bettina's philosophies to be quite misled and misinformed, just as you yourself do, Karx.
I am not unmoved by this; rather, I should certainly hope to have the opportunity to share with her the statutes of my faith with her in a way that would bring her to a saving knowledge of Christ. Let's all face it - as a Christian, and therefore I view faith in Jesus Christ to be the only way to have a relationship with the God of the universe, who both loves and yet judges the world according to His perfection, with which none live up to except through the sacrificial work of His Son Jesus. These are harsh words to those that do not sign up to such a belief, and can certainly come off as condemning or unloving.
I must agree with you on every point you've made thus far, Karx. And yet, I must disagree with your delivery. And believe you me - I have had to learn this lesson time and again - proclaiming a faith that requires self-denial and the repentance of sins and believing that only One Name exists through which we are able be saved can be bitterly caustic to others. Only through a display of love and of care can we ever expect to lend credibility to our faith. I am not a condemning person. I believe in forgiveness, in love, in humility, in service to others, in the proclamation of the gospel of Christ, and in following the commandments of Scripture (and, of course, I frequently fail in all of those areas, which is why the grace of God exists). I certainly will not lie down to sleep tonight without saying a prayer for Bettina.
Ironic, then, that Bettina has come across as much more loving and less condemning then you do, Karx. That's the reason I suggested that you make this a private affair. You can always deliver your beliefs in a much gentler way without sacrificing the content. A good friend of mine once claimed to be agnostic, and many a Christian friend of mine (and previously, of his) came up to him with the same brash attitude that you've shown towards Bettina. He knew what I believed - and I reiterated it to him. He wasn't interested in what I had to share, so I simply determined to live out my faith before him and continue to build my friendship with him whatever way I could. He may one day open up to what I have to say, and he may not. I would be tremendously disappointed if he did not, but I'm certainly going to show him respect and (a degree) of tolerance to his beliefs, because otherwise, I have not even begun to practice what I preach (1 Corinthians 13). I care about him deeply, and I strive to make that known without becoming arrogant or demanding.
Your assessment of Bettina's beliefs was therefore unduly forward and out of place. Like I said before, this was a topic started in encouraging Vanguard to make the right decision regarding his future, and also, this is a Descent forum. Actually, had this been a forum about religious discussion, I would have backed you 110%, Karx. If you want to start a discussion about religious topics that need not include everyone besides those who want to be included, and everyone understands that evangelism (or proselytizing, as many forums call) necessarily follows certain faiths, be my guest. I am not a believer in denying all talk about politics and religion, but in this particular thread, your comments were definitely forced and did not serve to help Vanguard.
I'm leaving this forum open because I don't feel like this will become a flame war of sorts as long as everything here is clearly understood. However, if another moderator feels that it is time to shut it down, I stand behind them.
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Sorry D2Junkie,
but I completely disagree with your evaluation of my "delivery". I have learned a thing or two as well in my over twenty years of being born again. Love isn't always in kind words. It is easy to come over loving and forgiving if you don't have firm beliefs. As you can also easily see from Bet's comment about me, she is by far not only the nice person she is presenting herself as to others. I don't care about a nice facade when stuff like that comes out of the heart.
I also have to say that I am fed up of Bettina inevitably spreading their beliefs everywhere she gets an opportunity - not because it's Bettina, but because of the nature of her beliefs. It therefore was not inappropriate to point out to her where she is wrong (imo), or at least illogical. I think it was about time to confront her with that. I am also fed up of all this "you have to talk nice and sweet not offend the non believers" when sometimes they just need to hear the truth in clear words. The bible has clear words about those only telling others what they want to hear.
You may not like my presentation of my beliefs, because it may be dry and factual to the extent of appearing harsh and also addressing personal weaknesses, but that doesn't make it less valid. What do you definitely do not know about is my attitude towards Bettina. Apparently you are concluding that I would reject or condemn here from my rejection of her beliefs, and that is where you are wrong. I am also not condemning her for being arrogant, but imo she is, and imo she needs to hear that. I wonder if she ever got any feedback from all you "nice" people that would have made her seriously think about her beliefs and some of her character traits. Put people under pressure, and you will find out what's really inside them.
Think about whether you would go and tell Smith Wigglesworth, or John Wesley, or Reinhard Bonnke they should be (or have been) nicer to the people. The gospel will never be welcome to everybody, regardless of its presentation. As a christian, you should know that.
My beliefs are my own business. Christianity at its core is about my relationship with Christ. My relationship is nobody else's business unless I ask them, and likewise theirs is not mine. There is hardly a person in America who hasn't heard christian preachings before, especially someone who says they go to church. Therefore, for me or anybody else to continue preaching to them is unnecessary and unproductive. If they were going to convert or whatever is it you want them to do, they'd have done it the first 500 times.
This is 100% wrong - at least if you are serious with Jesus. The bible tells you clearly that you should be a witness - that is with your life and your words. Your attitude also is 100% unresponsible. As a christian, you should have understood that you are having a responsibility for unsaved people around you. That doesn't mean you constantly have to talk everybody around you into being a christian, but it means that you should pray for and talk to them under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Obviously many of the people having heard 500 sermons haven't heard the right thing yet, and thus it is right to keep testifying (with words and life).
You are trying to force them by telling them "you are wrong, change or go to hell". Not all force is physical, especially in something that exists entirely in the non-physical realm such as religion. The strongest forces of all are those of emotion and thought. You can force me to perform an action, you cannot ever force mt to think a thought or feel an emotion.
First of all, nobody here has threatened anybody with hell. Second, even if we did, we couldn't cast anybody there. Third, if there is a hell, and people are in danger of getting there, then it is our duty to warn them, and the danger is real with or without us telling them. Apparently you also have not understood that the Kingdom of God ("religion") does not just exist in the non-physical realm. It's made physical through the believers, and that's what Jesus said, not what I am saying.
You are trying to discredit me by insinuating I would try to force anybody. Where did I say Bet what she has to believe? All I pointed out were the flaws in her beliefs.
You are the kind of christian that doesn't want to accept any of the challenges and duties being a follower of Jesus brings with it, but tries talk himself out of it, giving himself an appearance of godliness with nothing to back it up. Yeah, I know you don't like to hear all of that, because actually you are resenting these biblical truths.
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Karx, have a powerup.
Looks like the whole situation has been this (simplified at the risk of building a strawman, but I think this accurately captures what's been going on)
*Bettina interjects philosophical beliefs*
Karx: those are logically incoherent
Bettina+Everyone else: You're rude! <- Ad Hominem.
Nobody has tried to handle Karx's claims directly. That's the biggest problem I'm seeing here.
So I'm starting to wonder... Can you?
edit: I just noticed people recently are starting to touch on the issues themselves. That's good, I just wanted to point out the fallacious argumentation that was preceeding, and I hope it's done.
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Pardon me, O Righteous One, but a) How was she in any way spreading her beliefs? She stated her beliefs because it was in the context of Vanguard's problems. She didn't say "My beliefs are right and yours are wrong".
b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?
Is there not a bible verse somewhere that says "God will condemn the righteous and raise up the humble"?
EDIT: Canceler, it's not about whether Karx is right or wrong. It's about whether he's being rude and out of place or not.
Try this version:
Bettina: States beliefs briefly, as does Vanguard and several others
Karx: Your beliefs are wrong and you're going to hell for it if you don't change!
Everyone else: You're rude!
Like I said, it's none of my concern what someone else chooses to believe. They've been told before, they can choose themselves to take it or leave it. Call me un-christian if you will, but I think the world needs kindness far more than it needs intolerance. Whether that kindness originates from someone who believes the same as me or not is irrelevant to me. God and God alone will choose who to save, and who to use in his plans. It is not up to us to choose.
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Pardon me, O Righteous One
Yes, I am made righteous through Jesus Christ. I know what you are trying to say though. What does that kind of personal attack on the other side say about you? Is that all you have to offer, your best argument? Don't look the other direction now, my friend.
a) How was she in any way spreading her beliefs? She stated her beliefs because it was in the context of Vanguard's problems. She didn't say "My beliefs are right and yours are wrong".
You say it: She stated them, regardless why.
b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?
Don't claim it, prove it!
Karx: Your beliefs are wrong and you're going to hell for it if you don't change!
This quote makes you a plain liar. I never said, nor suggested that.
Is there not a bible verse somewhere that says "God will condemn the righteous and raise up the humble"?
You may want to Google bible quotes you don't really know. God will certainly not condemn the righteous. You sound like you don't go to church (or at least don't listen to the sermons), and don't read the bible. It's funny someone like you claims he is a christian but contradicts every responsibility and duty accompanying that.
I am excited to hear about your concept of humility. I have to say that you don't fit too well in mine.
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b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?
Don't claim it, prove it!
Oh, you mean like you're doing? I claimed nothing, I asked you a question. Your reaction tells me that is indeed what you're doing, whether you wish to admit or not. Yet for some reason because you feel more important for being "right", it's good for you to do it and bad for her to do it.
My concept of humility? Not sure, but I know you don't fit it.
Please show me where it's a crime to state one's beliefs, karx.
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Stop talking yourself out of it all the time.
Your question was a rhetorical one, and as such as statement.
I never said stating ones opinion was wrong ("a crime"). Actually you are all the way saying that about me. I do however believe and say that some opinions are wrong.
So far I have been able to disprove everything you have said. Now you are more and more resorting to what Canceler calls "ad hominem" statements.
It looks like you have nothing really substantial to say (not even about your concept of humility), and I am tired of your made-up, false claims and accusations here. You have been posting lies already. Think about who the "Father of Lies" and "Accuser of the Brethren" is, if you know that much (judging from your lack of bible knowledge I am starting to doubt you do), and if you really want to be brought into relation with that.
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Pardon me, O Righteous One
Loaded Words.
but a) How was she in any way spreading her beliefs? She stated her beliefs because it was in the context of Vanguard's problems. She didn't say "My beliefs are right and yours are wrong".
Beliefs are touchy that way. Merely stating them can be an indirect (even unintended) accusation of wrong against mutually exclusive beliefs. If I said I believe Islam is true, then indirectly I state my belief that every "infidel", as they say, is going to Hell. People have a right to state their beliefs, indeed. Nobody is questioning that. And if I, or anyone, believe someone else's beliefs are wrong, then we have the right to say so, too.
b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?
Is there a legitimate problem with that?
Is there not a bible verse somewhere that says "God will condemn the righteous and raise up the humble"?
I did a quick search and (I am not as proficient as I ought to be) the closest thing I came up with is this:
1 Peter 5:5 "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
Indeed, everyone involved in such discussion of fundamentals is at risk of pride, but addressing beliefs that are (or even at least seem to be) false is possible with humility, by carefully staying on subject and not becoming offensive. (Note: your address to Karx as "O Righteous One" is a personal attack.)
I claimed nothing, I asked you a question.
Loaded question = hidden claim. You claimed it.
Please show me where it's a crime to state one's beliefs, karx.
It's not. And I believe, as Karx believes, that Bettina's beliefs are false. Anyone has the right to state that if they believe it.
It's about whether he's being rude and out of place or not.
Well I smell a sneaky strategy going on there. You don't like what Karx is saying on a fundamental level, so (perhaps even subconsciously) you're going on about a way to make him stop. Quickest way to do that is to make him look like his behavior is out of line. As a matter of fact, that kind of strategy matches the definition of Ad Hominem perfectly. Personally, I don't think he has been rude. I find Karx to be a dead-honest philosopher. That can make people feel uncomfortable, but truth be told, Karx hasn't been making ANY personal insults.
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Karx hasn't been making ANY personal insults (although Karx your most recent post is getting REALLY close).
If IHateHackers is a christian, and given how far he has gone already, I think it is time to seriously remind him in whos realm he is moving with that. It is the exact same stuff I remind myself of when I start to talk or even just think bad about other christians. I think it is one of the devil's greatest delights to turn christian against christian and spread division and strife between brothers (and sisters) in the spirit. I have seen it too often, I have seen what it can and will do, and by all means I don't want any of this in my life.
I have seen so often what IHateHackers is doing here. When people don't like to hear something, but cannot counter it with good arguments, they start and try to discredit their "adversary" on a personal level. Once they have succeeded, they have automatically disqualified everything he has said (so they think), making them believe they don't have to deal with it anymore. Well, you may kill the messenger, but that won't change the message and its truth.
D2Junkie,
since this thread has gone quite OT from its original topic, it might be an idea to split it, don't you think?
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Congrats on missing the point. It's not about proving or disproving anything. It's about respecting others, plain and simple. I never knew you were religious, and frankly I liked you better that way. You're just as disrespectful now as you have ever been, and frankly I'm ashamed to call myself a member of the same group of people as you. I'm not really sure what point you think I'm trying to make, but I really don't appreciate you insinuating that being religiously tolerant makes me less of a christian.
Canceler and karx both, I'm not sure why you both seem to lump personal beliefs and opinions of others belief in the same word.
Canceler, yes those most certainly were loaded words. Yes, it is a personal attack. But it also fits right in with my previous statement about the righteous and the humble.
According to karx himself, yes there is a legitimate problem with that.
Why do I need to prove my claim? Indeed, how does one prove that?
(Back to karx post again) Christians will receive no special treatment in my book. Christians are not infallible, we're not special. We're normal people. Where do you think Christianity came from? It split off from Catholicism. Division and strife.
I'm not even trying to argue about religion. You can think whatever the heck you want. Just don't go preaching to everyone who thinks differently about how they're going to hell for it. If someone wants to be corrected and has indicated such, perhaps even by where they posted it, fine. But this is not the time or place for it, and she didn't. Preaching to those who will not listen achieves nothing. A point I keep making that you keep ignoring.
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IHateHackers,
no, it is not about respect for others for you, as you are showing no respect for me. That are just shiny words disguising the true nature of your attacks. It is simply about your convictions and what you like to hear about them and what you don't like.
What you are trying to do is to silence me. In a good, respectfully conducted discussion you have to prove your claims and not hurl personal attacks at people who are saying things you don't like, doing the very thing you are attacking them for refusing it to others: Stating their opinion. You admit that you cannot even prove your claims. You even admit that all you are doing is to post personal attacks. It is just ridiculous that you actually believe that would be justified.
I am giving you my definition of humility: Humility first of all is accepting the truth of God's word and trying your best to live by it - starting by giving your life to Jesus Christ and let him change your heart and guide you through life. Obeying God is a sure sign of loving God (all of which is accomplished by God, yet has to be lived out by us). That includes accepting your state before God (both privileges and duties), and being able to accept justified criticism and act on it in a constructive way. It has become quite obvious that you have nothing of that. If I was you I'd be very careful not to have bible words I quote turn against me, how wasted giving such advice to you might be.
You are making it very hard to believe that you are a born again christian. While I can't tell for sure, I seriously doubt it.
I don't care whether you like or allow me to present my beliefs, and opinion about their beliefs, to others. You have been all the way negative, aggressive, offensive and anti-scriptural, thus completely invalidating what little point you might have had. Given how you have presented yourself and your beliefs here, you are by no means a person whos opinion would have any value in my book.
You are entitled to say the same about me, but (since you are not a forum mod or admin, who'd have the right to remove everything from this forum he or she might see fit) not to denying me saying that. Right now you are the one who cannot live with opinions of others he doesn't like. Well, you gotta live with them, like it or not.
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If IHateHackers is a christian, and given how far he has gone already, I think it is time to seriously remind him in whos realm he is moving with that.
I read it over a few times and changed my mind. Technically it is closely related with personal attacks, because it does concern the person, but with a few proof-reads it's not unfounded.
I have seen so often what IHateHackers is doing here. When people don't like to hear something, but cannot counter it with good arguments, they start and try to discredit their "adversary" on a personal level.
Indeed, this is textbook ad hominem. I really wish people were forced to study and review logic and rhetoric through all years of post-primary school.
It's not about proving or disproving anything. It's about respecting others, plain and simple. ... You're just as disrespectful now as you have ever been, and frankly I'm ashamed to call myself a member of the same group of people as you.
Following your ad hominem strategy to the bitter end, it seems. For the record, ad hominem = disrespect. Karx did not make this mistake, you did.
Canceler and karx both, I'm not sure why you both seem to lump personal beliefs and opinions of others belief in the same word.
Opinions of others beliefs is a personal belief. And when it comes to objective truth-claims, mutually exclusive beliefs don't mix. When one is put forward that conflicts with mine, I have as much right to argue with it as the first person does to state it.
According to karx himself, yes there is a legitimate problem with that.
No, as far as I can tell Karx and I have BOTH been arguing FOR free statement of personal belief...because we believe that some other beliefs are wrong, and that is the type of belief he's been stating.
Why do I need to prove my claim? Indeed, how does one prove that?
I forgot what the claim was already, but seriously, you don't think you need to offer support for otherwise hollow claims?
Where do you think Christianity came from? It split off from Catholicism. Division and strife.
Christianity came from Christ. Catholicism shot off from Christianity, adulterated with rituals and rites that the original authors of the New Testament never professed. The protestant reformation was the movement that brought the original message of Christ back into the world from the secrecy where the Catholic Clergy had been hiding it. The strife came from the Clergy hating the fact that they were losing power and control over the minds and hearts of the ignorant, who were then returning to the light of the true Gospel.
Preaching to those who will not listen achieves nothing. A point I keep making that you keep ignoring.
Indeed, you don't seem to listen to much of anything. I had hoped otherwise, but alas, this is the result.
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holy cow!!!!!!! and no pun intended, I'm gone a couple hours and there's at least one or two pages already. WOW!!!!!!
I only skimmed though some of it.
What Bettina said was not offensive. She did nothing wrong. Whomever replied, came off a bit rude.
I am Christian, as most know by now. I think it was IHateHackers that said we shouldn't force God into their throats, or something along those lines. I agree. We shouldn't. We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.
If they wish to know, that's another story.
I can talk about almost anything, and I don't instantly become enemies with people who may not be Christian. Especially on here. We're people behind a computer screen.
I may read what all of you have been typing out. wow, still cant believe it's been at least a good page and a half in a short amount of time.
I believe God will do the right thing. I want out more than anything. Who knows. Maybe God will change someones heart and I will be a-ok there. I don't know. I thought that my truck would just go back to Wells Fargo, and that's the end of it. Well, today, someone is interested and will pay me on Friday when they're back in town, someone from work.
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"Born again?"
Clearly you and I are not of the same denomination. I've never heard that term used to describe a christian. Which certainly might explain some of our differences.
Canceler, if karx is arguing for free statement, why did he say he was "fed up with Bettina spreading her beleifes everywhere"? That was the part that really got me fired up.
Karx you can think of me what you will, I have nothing against your beliefs.
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We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.
You're a nice guy, I can tell. You believe this because you mean no harm or insult to others. But unfortunately, you are mistaken on this point. After obtaining salvation, you really have no other purpose left on this earth other than to become a Fisher Of [wo]Men. Why oh why would God allow us to remain in suffering on a fallen world if we are not meant to take up our Great Commission - to "go, and make disciples of all nations"? I have often felt that, as my place is now secured in God's Kingdom, that I have no further use for this world--and I don't. I am here not to acquire gain for myself, but to do the work that our Lord has laid out before me, and increase the glory of His Kingdom through proclaiming His truth. As hard as it is, it does involve persuasive argumentation.
Canceler, if karx is arguing for free statement, why did he say he was "fed up with Bettina spreading her beleifes everywhere"? That was the part that really got me fired up.
I forgot about that statement. I didn't take it the same way you did though. Firstly, the reason I believe Karx is arguing for freedom of expression is because he calls you out for denying his. Now about this quote, I took it not to mean that he wants to revoke her right to state her beliefs, but rather he's fed up with people always allowing beliefs such as hers to go unchecked, and that whenever someone does try to rebut them, they get attacked as a hostile (I've observed this happening almost every time a rebuttal is made, not just on PD but anywhere really). That, I think, is where Karx's frustration comes from. If I had said those words, it would have been a mistake of not being clear on what I meant. I only hope I'm assessing Karx accurately.
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This has really took a different turn, I'll say.
In a nutshell, it went like this. Bettina said something to me. I replied tactfully. Whether anything or everything is wrong with what she believes in, someone started to break into it and told her, her faults.
And then all of this. Why? I mean, really? I love God. Bettina may not, or only Jesus. Does it make sense to me? No. But I am not on her case. I am not telling her, her faults. I am not preaching things to her and trying to correct her.
Someone did though, and then all of this happened. That's why some said "PM each other" if both desire to do so. If it's fine, and you wish to keep it up, be my guest. I won't be offended. I'm just a little bit surprised all of this happened.
update: Canceler, we all have a reason to be on this earth. To work unto the Lord, to worship Him, to follow Him. God never granted happiness here on earth, or the easy way out. I lost my dad, house, car, job, all in one years time, or two. I still love God. He knows what is best for me. I still find Him amazing, and could never think of leaving Him. I know you're not saying I should though. Just making a point. I know that being with God, despite hard times, is far better than not being with God.
And it shows true love, doesn't it? To go through hard times and still turn to the Father.
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That's all well and good, canceler, but I'm sure she's heard it a million times before. If she doesn't want to listen, let her be. If you want to preach, go do it to people who will listen.
EDIT: Whatever, forget it. This is an argument that won't be won by anybody.
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That's all well and good, canceler, but I'm sure she's heard it a million times before. If she doesn't want to listen, let her be. If you want to preach, go do it to people who will listen.
EDIT: Whatever, forget it. This is an argument that won't be won by anybody.
I think I came to that conclusion a while back actually :)
People believe what they wish to, right or wrong. And I am sure I may believe in things that are wrong, or not believe in things that I should believe in. No one is perfect. No one.
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I just noticed somebody gave me my first power-down. Classy, Karx.
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someone gave me a powerup. maybe that was a mistake :-\
I gave you a powerup.
I got my first power down a long time ago. no idea why. sort of suprised it's still at -1. but I am sure it will change soon.
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I gave you a powerup for handling this better than all 3 of us combined.
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thank you. I do what I can.
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I just noticed somebody gave me my first power-down. Classy, Karx.
You're welcome. You have worked hard to earn it. Keep it civil, and it won't happen again. Nothing against controversial arguments, but personal attacks means carrying things to far. Don't worry though, I got a powerdown here too before you got yours, and I have an idea who awarded it to me.
Don't have the right to be fed up by Bet spreading a philosophy that deeply contradicts what I value and appreciate most? Don't I have the right to say that? Does that mean I am denying her the right to do it? Certainly not. It did however inspire me to finally say something about her opinions.
You don't see the things as they are happening, you are seeing them distorted through your preconceptions.
Canceler,
you are a nice guy (maybe too nice). You are trying to see good where there is none, at least when looking at this thread. I would never try to flatter someone who has misbehaved as much as IHateHackers here has just to appease him. The best such people will get is my attempts to bring them back to reason by staying calm and presenting good arguments, which was a waste of time in this case though (like in a few others).
I hope someone takes his time to split this thread and clean it up for Vanguard.
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you have a right. I would have picked a PM though. I don't get into it much, but I suppose that's what I'd do.
I don't give anyone powerdowns. not even spammers. that's me though.
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I just noticed somebody gave me my first power-down. Classy, Karx.
You're welcome. You have worked hard to earn it. Keep it civil, and it won't happen again. Nothing against controversial arguments, but personal attacks means carrying things to far. Don't worry though, I got a powerdown here too before you got yours, and I have an idea who awarded it to me.
Don't have the right to be fed up by Bet spreading a philosophy that deeply contradicts what I value and appreciate most? Don't I have the right to say that? Does that mean I am denying her the right to do it? Certainly not. It did however inspire me to finally say something about her opinions, and against them.
You don't see the things as they are happening. You see them distorted through your preconceptions.
So it's OK for you to be fed up with her for stating hers, but for anybody (me) to fed up with you for the same is wrong?
Keep it civil? I'm not even going to touch that one.
Distorted preconceptions? I assure you I had no conceptions about you prior to this conversation. I just don't see why it's so hard for you to live and let live.
Just read your edit. Could you be a little more self-righteous?
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no point in touching it. I use to get so into politics, and spiritual/religious stuff, going back and forth. I keep more to myself now. People believe what they want to believe in, whether it be right or wrong.
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Keep it civil? I'm not even going to touch that one.
As usual, you have nothing really to say, so you are making some more "loaded words".
Distorted preconceptions? I assure you I had no conceptions about you prior to this conversation. I just don't see why it's so hard for you to live and let live.
Why is it so hard for you? It is you who doesn't want to admit my opinion here. It is you who is trying to silence me. I didn't try to silence Bettina, I tried to show here where she's wrong.
You want to hear from me that you are a nice guy? Prove it, and I will call you so. Right now, you are doing nothing but the opposite.
The way you are twisting the truth here is disgusting and honorless.
I think these are good final words to you: "It's not the things that are going into us that are making us impure, it's the things that are coming out of us."
I am Christian, as most know by now. I think it was IHateHackers that said we shouldn't force God into their throats, or something along those lines. I agree. We shouldn't. We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.
What kind of christian are you? The bible tells us to make all the world disciples. How would you propose to accomplish that if we must not speak about God to others?
I am getting the impression that quite a few christians here don't know at all what being a christian really means.
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Live and let live does not mean telling someone off for their beliefs. Live and let live means you keep to yourself and let them do as they please.
The irony of this is not lost me, I assure you.
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Live and let live does not mean telling someone off for their beliefs. Live and let live means you keep to yourself and let them do as they please.
Can't Bettina do what she pleases now?
If you haven't read and understood it by now, its probably pointless to remind you of the purpose and tasks a christian should fulfil on this planet.
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Now who's resorting to personal attacks?
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I just don't see why it's so hard for you to live and let live.
Quite simply, because of mutual exclusivity. Being a logician myself, I tend to assume everyone is as well. So if someone states a belief that they have, and this belief, if true, causes problems for my beliefs, then, in the interest of pursuing the truth (which in the case of philosophical discussion tends to decide how to live one's very life), I am obligated to seek out the reasons behind a person's beliefs. Hence, I question them, I test them, in order to prove or bust them.
This is done by highlighting the problems with those beliefs that challenge mine. If the other person is correct, then I need to change the way I think. However, I have eternity invested in the beliefs I have now. Naturally I'm not going to relent in my assessment, and will pursue the opposition's deconstruction ardently. This behavior is not wrong, it is in the interest of finding the truth. In cases like this, where the opposing beliefs have evident flaws (self-conflict: believing in Jesus but not the Biblical God), it is necessary to point out that flaw--which is the first thing I saw Karx actually do.
Live and let live does not mean telling someone off for their beliefs. Live and let live means you keep to yourself and let them do as they please.
Not only does the pursuit of truth require that we check mutually exclusive beliefs for our own sake, but realize that our own beliefs have quite grave implications for other people who disagree. I believe all people who do not recognize and accept Jesus as the Christ will be given to Hell. If holders of opposing beliefs cannot deconstruct this belief of mine, then am I not obligated to attempt to convince them of the beliefs that, if true, will save them from an otherwise terrible fate? It is not meant to become an attitude of "holier than thou" or to become a hate-tactic; if a Christian, such as myself and Karx, is truly convinced of his or her beliefs, then persuasive argumentation is an act done out of concern for the opponent's eternal well-being. That is why our Great Commission was instigated.
I am getting the impression that quite a few christians here don't know at all what being a christian really means.
It's a lonely world out here bro.
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I am simply stating a fact. Concerning the purpose of a christian I was expressing myself clear and simple enough. If you haven't read or understood it, then I think it's valid to assume you don't want to, and if that is the case, reminding you of it is pointless.
"Born again?"
Clearly you and I are not of the same denomination.
Obviously you are not what I would call a christian then (and what the Bible defines as such), and this explains why you are having such a watered-down view of christianity.
Canceler,
not so lonely. :)
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I am Christian, as most know by now. I think it was IHateHackers that said we shouldn't force God into their throats, or something along those lines. I agree. We shouldn't. We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.
What kind of christian are you? The bible tells us to make all the world disciples. How would you propose to accomplish that if we must not speak about God to others?
I am getting the impression that quite a few christians here don't know at all what being a christian really means.[/quote]
there's a difference between going to church and having someone preach the Word. It's another to personally go after someones belief and try to change them. Do you think God wants forced love? Maybe karx could have worded it better and it would have made a big difference.
I just think a more tactful way, if needed to even bring it up, would have been better.
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Vanguard,
please make sure to have read and understood what I have been saying to Bettina before posting things that have nothing to do with it, like the stuff about "forced love". All I have tried is to make Bettina rethink her beliefs and apply some common sense and logic to it, and to think over her attitude and behavior towards me.
There is no difference between someone going to church and someone preaching the word. I am not a preacher. I am a software developer. I am also a born again christian though, hence I am called to tell people about the gospel, or hint them to it in one way or the other, depending on the person. So I will take a stand when I see fit. Now I have seen people talk to Bettina about the love of God and everything in a kind and tender way, and I have seen her reject it. So I will not push her into that again, but simply show the contradiction in her beliefs in the hope that she will start to test her beliefs herself and see where they fail, hoping that will enable her to penetrate to the truth herself. I don't think she's the person who will just easily believe what others are telling her, I believe she is the person who must figure it herself. If you see it that way, I am having a lot of respect for her. If you see my telling her that she is arrogant in the light of my having confidence that she has the maturity to deal with it and reflect her own actions in my feedback, then you will understand that I am having respect for her in that, too. Of course it is up to her where she is interested in finding a solid truth or prefers the cosy illusion of being safe with her current beliefs.
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Being a christian, as I was taught it, means to follow christ, and have a relationship with christ. Please tell me where I am going wrong here and not understanding what it means to be a christian. If someone asks, I will tell them. But I see no need to preach to someone who doesn't want to hear it. This isn't 1000 BC anymore. Everyone has heard of God and Jesus, whether they believe it or not is their choice. Nothing I can say will change their mind. What's more, people tend to shy away from things that they associate with bad memories. If someone has memories of attacked by Christians for not believing, it's not exactly going to make them want to join in on that.
Further, Bettina said she believes in Jesus. Also known as Christ. What is the root word of Christianity? Christ. Whether she intends it or not, I think Bettina follows closer to Christ than many people who would call themselves devout Christians. I have never seen her be anything but a good person, and to tell her she's going to hell for it is just disgusting.
If minding my own business and keeping my relationship with Christ to myself makes me less of a Christian in your eyes, then so be it. Your judgement is not the one that matters.
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Great. I get back home to find my earlier defense called into question and a war break out between Karx and IHateHackers. Yes, I'm a Christian, and I know what being a Christian really means. I also know what disunity means. I tried to keep things civil for the sake of the gospel, because a bunch of so-called Christians arguing over who's really Christian or not just makes the gospel look that much more unattractive. If you're sincerely interested in winning souls to Christ, people, you'd better shut up and stop flinging mud. This is rather immature. Talk about the matter privately, you two.
/me hovers menacingly over "Lock Topic" button
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/me hovers menacingly over "Lock Topic" button
/me jumps of top of D2junkie, causing him to dip dangerous close to the button.
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I think everyone here has a point (Bettina, Karx, IHateHackers, Canceler) and I understand what everyone one wants to say perfectly, and everyone is (at least to my eyes) perfectly right in one or another way according to the beliefs of each one.
BUT, although an interesting discussion, this is looking almost identical to E&C and it's not the kind of discussion I like to see in PD. :-\
(not that my opinion matters that much lol ;D)
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I have replied to most of that already, particularly where Bettina went wrong.
There's a bit of theology behind the term "being born again". To make a long story short: When you consciously and willingly accept that
- you have failed to please God (a.k.a. have sinned)
- have therefore deserved punishment in the form of eternal separation from God (a.k.a. eternal death - I could bring in hell here, but seeing God and knowing you won't be living with him would be hell already)
- that the death of Jesus Christ is acceptable for God as replacement for punishing you
- claim that replacement for you personally
- on that base, ask God to forgive you and replace your spirit (which has been destroyed by sin) with a new spirit
- invite Jesus as your saviour, master and friend into your life
then according to the Bible, God will forgive you and fill you with a new spirit (like a new engine for a broken car engine, to use an analogy) allowing you to communicate with God in a way impossible for you previously
The result is that God will want to communicate (speak) with you, that he will start to change your "heart" (i.e. the essence of who you are) to make your character resemble more and more the character of Jesus. The logical next step is to be baptized in water, which symbolizes the death of your old nature and resurrection as a new, Christ-like nature (and, according to scripture, is also a request to God for a purified conscience), and to be baptized (infilled) with the Holy Ghost, which according to scripture (usually) is a separate event requiring you to invite the Holy Ghost, and (according to scripture) is accompanied by the Holy Ghost giving you a special, heavenly prayer language (-> speaking in tongues).
A consequence of all these steps when done sincerely and honestly is that you will start to feel a desire to please God and follow what he shows you he would like to see from you. That is first of all to spend time with him talking to him and listening to him (-> prayer). I purposefully not calling this prayer because for many people coming from traditional churches this means a lifeless, stiff, religious exercise, while living and talking with God isn't at all like that. Another consequence is that you will want to read the Bible and attend a church that practises all these things (just take your time to find a church where you can feel welcome and at home). A third consequence is that you will start to have times where you praise and worship God with songs and words (this is also scriptural). Yet another consequence is that you will understand your responsibility for helping God to bring other people into His forgiveness and family.
There are a lot of scriptures proving this and explaining why these things are good for us. A good read would be "Basics Of Faith" by Derek Prince (3 books).
I hope I could answer most of your questions with this.
D2Junkie,
there is no war, and I in particular have not been flinging mud. You should be a bit more careful here! This discussion is about truth, and unlike you seem to think that is no contradiction to love.
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what? I don't have a point? oh wait, yeah, lots of points. ;D
has anyone read the topic? It's to not waste time on this. I'm partially to blame. I was hoping to have a discussion about not wasting time on foolish things, and not worry about any "end of the world" stuff, which most don't think will end anytime real soon.
And also to spend time with people you love, and not dwell on small things. Look into the future so to speak, to continue to grow with others.
I was hoping to have maybe some people like what I said, maybe it will help some people. I don't know. I love this girl. I can't think of leaving her even though she had hurt me. I know she likes me. maybe love one day. she wants to take it slow and not rush into things. I like that about her, and even though it hurts to just be friends, I don't want to end something because I am hurt, when I believe there is something great down the road.
I guess I just thought the message would help, and a few pages later, it's people talking about how to be Christian, and who isn't, and why one isn't Christan, and why they are. Back and forth, back and forth, etc etc.
Yikes.
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We call that Confirmation, karx. And I don't see anywhere in there where you're required to tell people they're wrong.
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maybe I should just leave. pack up. leave. say good bye. nice knowing you all. love to stay, but gotta go :D
hugs and kisses. going on my vacation.
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what? I don't have a point? oh wait, yeah, lots of points. ;D
I was refering to the points everyone has regarding the off-topic debate (that was not started by you on the first place).
But now for the sake of it, I've gave you a power-up Vanguard. :)
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thanks. you know me, I was having fun in that last reply, or last two I should say.
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We call that Confirmation, karx. And I don't see anywhere in there where you're required to tell people they're wrong.
I know the Catholic church quite well, and confirmation means nothing by itself. I also know many people who go to a state Church (protestant or catholic), but aren't born again.
Actually confirmation by the meaning of the word as well as by its requirements intended purpose and doesn't mean the same at all.
In catholicism, you're automatically saved when you're born by catholic parents and baptized as a baby. Confirming that when you're old enough to understand this doesn't lead to being born again for most confirmed catholics. Catholicism also has a non-biblical understanding of priesthood, and many practices contradicting the bible like worshipping Mary and the saints. Services are usually very formal in catholicism, and so is the relationship with Jesus.
All you are saying tells me that you have no idea of what following Jesus means. I have explained enough of that before. Don't tell me you are having a relationship with Jesus when you reject what he desires.
Enough of this though. I had hoped you would understand, or at least dig deeper to understand the difference. It looks like you only want to justify yourself. So be it.
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thanks. you know me, I was having fun in that last reply, or last two I should say.
Yeah, I noticed that. ;D
Anyway, back to topic, I hope you to be on a better situation soon (and definitely, search for another job!! as that boss seems a bit tyrant according to your description).
Cheers and good luck! :)
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All has been said that must be said. I'm sorry I wasn't careful enough. Looks like I accidentally clicked the "Lock Topic" button. Drop it. Now.
TOPIC LOCKED