Planet Descent
Community => Mess Hall => Topic started by: blessu on September 22, 2011, 01:48:57 AM
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I am throwing this in simply out of interest and for debate. I have recently got back into game play for pure enjoyment and fun. This site is great and I have found myself taking an interest in other aspects of the descent world, the community the knowledge, the music, the people. It is international and in the game rooms and forums we are all from one world with a common interest. Not many groups can say that.
My initial search led me to this site, however I also located dateiliste (thomas) and Valhalla (ryujin). Obviously these people have a great depth of knowldege and ability so in that sense I take my hat off to them. I have no vested interest other than wanting to play a bit enjoy the forums and hopefully develope my knowledge and skills. I have used the thomas installer and so far am very happy with the set up. Who finances this?
It would appear that Valhalla is closing down (which seems sad) due to lack of funds although I did make a small contribution to try and support it a bit. Although I do not use it as such I felt that it was no skin off my nose to help a little (descent has given me such pleasure over the years.
Can we should we help? Does it matter if we lose Valhalla? Who runs vortex? Are there other descent platforms to play and connect through? Could descent go into free fall again after all the hard work from so many minds? How do we finance any of this? I do not know, perhaps those of you with knowledge and opinions could debate this and perhaps we will all be enlightened.
It is a great community and I know many of you comunicate with each other over various issues. The interest is vast although many seem to have lost interest in playing descent anymore...personal choice I accept that but wasnt descent founded out of the game rooms and interlinking of minds.
Any thoughts please, in consideratioin that most of you are well up to speed on all of this, newcomers and especially young newcomers may be interested. :-\
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I can't speak for others but I will say this site is funded purely out of my own pocket. There is the Planet Descent Zazzle store on the front page which has netted less than $20 so far. (they won't send a check until it reaches $25, so I haven't received anything from that yet) I don't like to ask for donations, and there is not enough traffic to get advertising. However, if someone wanted to donate, it could be arranged.
While I can't say for sure, I am pretty sure Thomas pays the costs for his site himself, and I assume the same goes for any other sites. Though some ask for donations, I would be willing to bet none even recoup the cost of hosting and domain registration, let alone the hours put in to create and maintain a site.
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Why don't you contact Parallax/Outrage or whichever company still has a connection to the game(s) and say "I know times are tight but could we please have some corporate sponsorship in order to keep this server going. Because without that server, we can't play your game."
I mean, you're already advertising the Descent titles for sale on the Valhalla site. I would think they'd probably be happy to help you out, even if it were only for 12 months or something.
You might be pleasantly surprised because Descent is a product of theirs, for which there is no replacement.
What I do know is that if you don't ask, you definitely won't get.
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Like he said; in a nutshell, it's worth trying.
Too bad about PXO. Descent 3 was a lot of fun online. I say "was" because a; I am just too busy for that, and b, I doubt it's has big as it was years back.
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As far as I know, nobody really "runs" vortex. The only thing needs running is a site to download it from. Gamespy does the tracking servers.
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Vortex doesn't need someone to 'run' it the same way this site needs someone to run it, but there is still maintenance of the site, hosting to pay for, and updates to the code. Not to mention customer service, even though the software is offered free, there is still a need for support. IIRC Vortex is run by Skorpian.
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I disagree on all of those points. The code works as is and does not need updating. The community can provide customer support (face it, nobody is going to find vortex without having been recommended it by a community forum, they can get help there), and there are enough community sites that I'm sure somebody could host a mirror of it. Heck if it really did come down to that, I would host it. The only potential problem I see is that the vortex update checker would break, and take forever to start vortex.
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That would still be someone running it, just a different person(s). Whether it is you or Checkor hosting the site, or Skorpian or the community answering questions, or someone deciding not to make changes to the code, someone still has to do it.
The point is not that there is a great cost or many hours spent, but that any endeavor, large or small, has to be run by someone, whether that someone is an individual, a committee, or a community, if no one does it, it will cease to exist sooner or later. Like K-Query, remember that, it was before Vortex.
And, all code needs to be updated sometimes, as OS's change, people request features, or vulnerabilities are found.
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I can't see microsoft making any breaking changes to windows that could break vortex (or any program). Seeing as programs that ran on windows 95 will still run on windows 7. Code doesn't need to be updated for people requesting new features. As for vulnerabilities... Who is going to spend time looking for vulnerabilities in a program used by a collective of about 20 people?
Either way, code is the only real obstacle to vortex. If checkor suddenly shuts down his site without making vortex open source (on other sites, obviously), that would be a problem.
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I can't see microsoft making any breaking changes to windows that could break vortex (or any program). ...
{Shnerk!} Microsoft not make any breaking changes to Windows? ... IMO that might actually be a first if it should happen.
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Which is exactly why programs made 10 years ago still run, right? Because microsoft makes breaking changes? IIRC the only thing wrong with Descent 1 and 2 running without DXX was the clock being out of sync and joystick problems.
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Oh, is that all? Go ahead and play like that then. ;)
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I can't actually run the original programs without using dosbox or the sourceports.
They crash on startup.
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I can't see microsoft making any breaking changes to windows that could break vortex (or any program)...
I didn't think you were that narrowminded IHateHackers. Even I know better than to think like that. ;)
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Oh, is that all? Go ahead and play like that then. ;)
Considering vortex has neither use for a clock (and I mean a clock in terms of the computer, not a time of day lock) nor a joystick... Also, Descent was written for DOS which wasn't even Windows at all.
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Which is exactly why programs made 10 years ago still run, right? Because microsoft makes breaking changes? IIRC the only thing wrong with Descent 1 and 2 running without DXX was the clock being out of sync and joystick problems.
Oh, is that all? Go ahead and play like that then. ;)
Considering vortex has neither use for a clock (and I mean a clock in terms of the computer, not a time of day lock) nor a joystick... Also, Descent was written for DOS which wasn't even Windows at all.
No, it was Microsoft either way.
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But that is my whole point, maybe Vortex will run on some os twenty years from now, maybe not. But instead of Vortex we could just as easily say D2X-xl or DXX or whatever. The point is, someone has to do the maintaining and updating and hosting and support. If whoever owns Vortex made it open source, THAT STILL APPLIES... it won't maintain itself, SOMEONE has to do it. You? Community? Still, it is someone.
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The difference is that the community as a collective will not just suddenly up and shut down like one person could. The whole idea behind open-source projects.
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...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.
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As long as there's one person willing to do it though, it can get done.
And with a community large enough - and "large enough" doesn't have to be "large" - there will be someone willing to do it. Analogy - In the upcoming provincial election, there will definitely be someone in my neighbourhood who will vote NDP, even though the majority of votes will probably be either Liberal or Conservative.
I think Scyphi is falling into the same fallacy that politicians do when they talk about "voters" as a collective, deciding something ("I think [insert countrymen here] will come to see that my party..."). Because that's not what happens. Each person decides something different. And with a large enough community, there will still be someone voting for the person who doesn't win.
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...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.
Thank you.
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...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.
And somebody will. Somebody will want to get something done, and given the resources they need (in this case being the source code for Vortex), they will get it done. I really hope you're not implying that the entire Descent community, with all its talent, would sit by and watch what's essentially our only option for multiplayer die.
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No, not at all, go back to the beginning of the thread and refresh your memory as to what we were talking about.
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My point is that I've participated in enough open-source projects before (even sort-of led one) that all fizzled because there wasn't enough participation. That's not to say that I expect the Descent community will let their best available means for multiplayer die out, far from it. I'm just saying that going that route isn't always the best, and sometimes what needs to get done doesn't get done when it needs to through that route as well.
On another note...
I think Scyphi is falling into the same fallacy that politicians do...
Egad! I've been likened to politicians! NOOO! :o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ofn-WraBbQ)
*takes a deep breath*
Eh, oh well. On with the discussion. :P
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You're both right.
It's lack of participation and the desire to 'own' your own bit of the community.
It's very difficult to actually recruit people who will do what you tell them to in a serious way.
If you set out to do something, the chances are 99% that you're gonna be doing it ... on your own.
People will promise to help you out with things but when you actually rely on them to do it, it always falls through.
And then you have the issue of factionalism. Everybody wants their own little sandpit to be king of.
It takes a lot of trial and error and just ... perseverence to get past these. If someone sets up a service like that then people have to recognise its worth and also how much effort's been put in for them to get behind it themselves and help you with it meaningfully
... and that almost never happens.
So - for the sake of my understanding:
1. This Vortex thing is the main way of playing Descent3 online?
2. It requires a server
3. That server is privately run by a guy (who presumably had nothing to do with developing/marketing the game) out of his funds with the help of contributions from the community?
Right ... On that basis, then I think any company with any interest/stake in the Descent franchise will reluctantly agree to help fund the server costs. I mean, the costs can't be all that much to manage for a company with a turnover.
It's not fair for one guy to shoulder all that with a few contributions from individuals.
Just write them a really good letter. I wonder whether a paper one might be better than email but ... for this sort of thing an email might actually be more appropriate because it's less formal. I don't know.
And you should 'sign' it from all the people here (put my name on it) and put peoples' websites at the bottom so that they know that they names aren't made-up.
Outline what the costs are and then send that to the managing director of ... Interplay, Outrage, whoever and see if they bite.
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Vortex only provides a convienient way of connecting to a server. It is in some ways like a browser. Actually I guess you could say it is a browser, but it browses games, not websites. There are a lot of other features too, like connecting with chat, downloading and installing missions, launching D3 with comand line settings, and some more.
I am not sure where or how Vortex gets the list of games to browse, anyone know how that works? I assume from D3.Descent.cx Game Browser (http://d3.descent.cx/tracker.d3).
In a sense the costs are spread out somewhat. Different members of the community provide different pieces of the chain. For example we all provide support and training for new players here on Planet Descent. Various Desenters provide the servers on which multi-player games are played. Thomas provides an installer, etc...
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FYI: Vortex mostly is a match making program for Descent 3 (and hence offering a chat, too). WillyP has already pointed that out.
I can't see microsoft making any breaking changes to windows that could break vortex (or any program)...
I didn't think you were that narrowminded IHateHackers. Even I know better than to think like that. ;)
"Narrow minded"? Even you should see the point in what IHateHackers said. MS has changed Windows a lot (for the better), but has also done a lot to preserve backwards compatibility - even to a point where it is, honestly spoken, ridiculous. It looks like you are much more preoccupied than IHateHackers is. He is at least presenting some facts. You however are resorting to getting personal (and offensive).
...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.
Oh, I think the community has done that ... one bit for D2X-XL, the other one for Rebirth. Not to forget about D3 (another "half" bit?).
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The thing that's important about Vortex is that it can also retrieve listings from gamespy, and is, as far as I know, the sole means of doing so. When I look at vortex, maybe 1 or 2 results are from descent.cx. Of course, descent.cx lists the same games, but if vortex dies, that leaves just descent.cx, which is no more immune from closing than vortex, and I would imagine costs significantly more to maintain (An actively-running tracker server, rather than just a webserver). I won't go into "customer support" and "code maintainance" costs, because, honestly... When was the last time either was updated? And how much support does Checkor (or whoever runs descent.cx) personally give out? Most of it seems to come from the community.
I can't speak for everybody, but vortex is far more convenient than descent.cx as well. Which leads to a curious question... How many people use vortex and how many people use descent.cx or direct IP?
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I would have to say that Microsoft has struck a great balance RE: backwards-compatibility v breaking it.
It has made some weird choices with Win7 and Vista (ie. you can't seem to plug in a custom system midi controller ???).
I think they broke what they had to with Vista and that's basically us sorted for the forseeable future.
I mean, that's one reason why Vista was so unpopular. It didn't run all the badly-written crap that people got to work with XP.
7 was everyone's sweetheart because it didn't have to go back and break anything - and it runs a good bit faster.
I think it's quite nice from a Windows developer perspective that Mac has to resort to marketing and glitz and really ... quite deceptive advertising and this whole notion of the 'apple experience', whatever that is, to sell its crap these days.
Before, the apple computer was a valuable, useful sector of the market. It costed something to buy one but it was a useful OS, doing more with less and it was the best if you were in a production environment. Well, now Adobe and Apple are at loggerheads pretty much.
I mean, how long have Apple been on OS X? They just seem to me to be sticking on more useless, glitzy things like Time Machine, which hardly anyone will probably ever use.
I was speaking to someone who had to use it for lab research. He was saying how slow it was compared to Windows or even Ubuntu (which is a reasonably demanding Linux distro, obviously).
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I have the iMac OSX and I know I have the time machine. I have no idea what some of these things are though.
okay, warning, this just popped into my head.
The three computer nerds wanted to see what kind of operating system would suit them best. A computer expert said, "it may take some time, so go out and go for a walk."
So they did.
They came back and the first nerd opened up Windows and said, "This is too empty and bland."
The second turned on Mac OSX. "This is too bloated with stuff I'll never use."
and the third turned on Linux and said, "This is just right."
sorry; just popped in my head.
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I heard Lion really doesn't play well with Windows networks.
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I think it's quite nice from a Windows developer perspective that Mac has to resort to marketing and glitz and really ... quite deceptive advertising and this whole notion of the 'apple experience', whatever that is, to sell its crap these days.
Before, the apple computer was a valuable, useful sector of the market. It costed something to buy one but it was a useful OS, doing more with less and it was the best if you were in a production environment. Well, now Adobe and Apple are at loggerheads pretty much.
I mean, how long have Apple been on OS X? They just seem to me to be sticking on more useless, glitzy things like Time Machine, which hardly anyone will probably ever use.
I was speaking to someone who had to use it for lab research. He was saying how slow it was compared to Windows or even Ubuntu (which is a reasonably demanding Linux distro, obviously).
No, I think I'll just choose to disagree with the opinions stated in those two paragraphs.
I would have to say that Microsoft has struck a great balance RE: backwards-compatibility v breaking it.
It has made some weird choices with Win7 and Vista (ie. you can't seem to plug in a custom system midi controller ???).
I think they broke what they had to with Vista and that's basically us sorted for the forseeable future.
I mean, that's one reason why Vista was so unpopular. It didn't run all the badly-written crap that people got to work with XP.
7 was everyone's sweetheart because it didn't have to go back and break anything - and it runs a good bit faster.
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Yup, pretty much correct.
I heard Lion really doesn't play well with Windows networks.
Haven't seen any problems (yet) with Lion and Windows networks, but a lot of people are struggling with Lion and HP printers ... only because the HP drivers for Lion are only available through Apple Update instead of downloading them from HP. Big wup. (IMO)
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Well, not just windows network, but Active Directory domains in particular.
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Well you can't just say "I disagree" and then not say why.
Apple's marketing has become ridiculously selective. I went on their site the other day and here they were with a laptop advertised on their website "now 3x faster".
That was all the said about it.
Well, what does that mean? What does it refer to?
Someone might be forgiven for thinking that basically the entire operation of the notebook from CPU through to GPU to SATA, memory etc was 3x faster than the previous model, which is clearly a laughable claim.
I mean, that's tantamount to false advertising. I can't remember when I saw another manufacturer stand by such a bold and ridiculous claim.
I think it's fair to say that Apple are leaning on this "extra experience" nonsense. They are the kings of spin. There was a study recently that likened Apple to a religious cult.
Indeed, it was the same sectors of the brain being stimulated when Apple afficionados were shown products and pictures of the Apple stores etc. as were stimulated in religious types when viewing strongly religious imagery.
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Did they have a control group? And did they say that the results for the control group were different?
Otherwise I could see this result being meaningless (maybe that section of the brain is stimulated by a new computer, period). In fact, if they didn't say anything about their control group, it's possible that it wasn't any different but the so-called "scientists" were simply anti-Apple and they put some spin on it.
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Haha, I don't know. I only saw it mentioned in a Care2.com article, lol.
It's always better to have a control group but the point they were making was that Apple was like a religion substitute for these people, which I can see some sense in.
There is a certain element of praise and mysticism about Apple (with its huge graven images and logos in glass-fronted, cathedral-like stores and dull, monastically-clad nerd sales assistants) and the fact that the same areas of the brain were responding to it is an interesting anecdote to say the least.
Another thing I dislike about Apple is the vast amount of slave labour involved in the manufacture of their products, all of which retail for a premium. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in many other companies. Sony aren't brilliant for example (and I have no time for them either) but Apple is in a league of its own and Sony et al. aren't as active in covering up the matter either.
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Apple's marketing has become ridiculously selective. I went on their site the other day and here they were with a laptop advertised on their website "now 3x faster".
Not to pick a fight, but how is that different from any other computer company website? I mean, I bought a laptop from HP not too long ago, and as such made myself entitled to lots of ad-mail from them, and most to nearly all of them run along the same thing as what you claim.
And I've seen plenty of other companies do the same over the years, too.
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Really? Maybe I'm being unfair to them then.
Although, that just makes HP in the wrong as well, doesn't it?
I don't normally buy PCs from big companies so I don't know how they all go on but when I saw this ad on Apple's front page I figured it was taking quite a liberty.
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overall, I like HP. Apple is alright, but not as impressive as I was hoping.
I'm still most impressed with Linux (Mandriva or even PCLinuxOS)
It's not just that Linux is basically free, but I think they've done a great job in how it's run.