Planet Descent
Community => Mess Hall => Topic started by: Alieo on April 30, 2012, 09:38:27 PM
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This was on our local news tonight, and all I gotta say is... why?
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Pearland-children-face-animal-cruelty-charges-after-maiming-turtle-149600055.html (http://www.khou.com/news/local/Pearland-children-face-animal-cruelty-charges-after-maiming-turtle-149600055.html)
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It's not "kids nowadays", it's "kids". Stuff like that happened in my generation, and my parents' generation, and their parents' generation.
There are a lot of factors involved, but IMHO the one that spans the generations is that kids who don't have a good family structure around them often end up with serious issues.
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True!
But, back then it was, boys will be boys...
Today we are so inundated with politically correct liberal nonsense, they are actually considering criminal charges! What the hell is wrong with society today, that parents can't be allowed to do their job and tell the kids, DON'T TORTURE ANIMALS? It's a g-d turtle, for cryin out loud! Does NOT mean it's 'ok' to torture it... but criminal?
A necropsy is being performed and the remains are being kept in case they’re needed for the criminal investigation. Animal cruelty is a state jail felony.
This is what we are wasting taxpayer money on. Give me a break.
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Be careful, you might hurt some poor sea urchin's feelings.
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The second recorded sin, that I can recall, is Cain killing his own brother.
Things have been horrible for many many years. We just hear more because of the internet, etc.
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True!
But, back then it was, boys will be boys...
Today we are so inundated with politically correct liberal nonsense, they are actually considering criminal charges! What the hell is wrong with society today, that parents can't be allowed to do their job and tell the kids, DON'T TORTURE ANIMALS? It's a g-d turtle, for cryin out loud! Does NOT mean it's 'ok' to torture it... but criminal?
A necropsy is being performed and the remains are being kept in case they’re needed for the criminal investigation. Animal cruelty is a state jail felony.
This is what we are wasting taxpayer money on. Give me a break.
Yep... it's criminal because parents aren't technically allowed to spank their kids anymore. That's [sissy helium voice] child abuse! [/sissy helium voice]
It's not "kids nowadays", it's "kids". Stuff like that happened in my generation, and my parents' generation, and their parents' generation.
There are a lot of factors involved, but IMHO the one that spans the generations is that kids who don't have a good family structure around them often end up with serious issues.
And over 60% of "families" are broken nowadays. This stuff and this kind of behavior is more and more common, sad to say. Society is spiraling down. Sure it's happened for generations but it's only increasing more and more exponentially because our kids are seeing that it's "OK" to beat mommy, or it's "OK" to leave your wife, or it's "OK" to cheat, steal, and their kids will do the same until all the good ones with moral values will be a VERY small minority.
And FYI, one girl was involved in this too. Personally, I think they should do some sort of community service at the zoo under supervision of an adult to be taught the value of the life of smaller creatures. If it were my child, they would get a fair spanking on the ass, they'd be grounded ALL summer: no video games, no TV, no movies, no vacation, no candy, no birthday presents, and NO CHRISTMAS PRESENTS. THAT would be hell for someone that age. Oh, and I'd hang pictures of that turtle's bludgeoned body all over their room, removing whatever else pictures the have up for at least the end of the year. Or, I can just not have kids and not have to worry about any of that sh**.
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I was once grounded like that for over 3 or 4 years simply because my mom got mad when I didn't get ready for church fast enough. :)
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See, Enzo, I think that's the sort of thing child abuse people are trying to prevent. I agree that better discipline is required with kids than most practice, but it can always go too far.
Part of the problem is that people can no longer agree on when "too far" really IS too far or not.
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No, the kind of thing the child abuse people are trying to prevent is parents daring to lay a hand on their kids. Basically whenever I let that little episode out people think my mother is an unfit parent and that God forbid she so much as dare to have and raise a child (me) because she has anger issues.
And that makes me a little bit mad myself (understatement).
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If spanking, etc. was still allowed, then all those overreactions could be spankings or worse, and I'm not just talking about you.
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I still stand by what I said, Enzo.
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Well of course discipline can go too far.. It definitely went too far when my mother grounded me like that. It wasn't a specific "grounded for x years" thing but rather her getting mad and not ungrounding me - making a restriction on things I can do a habitual thing. But that was long ago. I don't even care about it much. I posted it because, in retrospect, I think it's actually funny, and causes funny reactions. Usually I will tell someone about this and wait for their reaction and then I get to laugh at them.
It is definitely true that people cannot agree on what is "too far". This goes for a lot of things and discipline is one of them.
However, I just can't stand those holier-than-thou folks who go about saying, with an air of superiority, that those who spank are doing so because they are - apparently unconditionally - "resorting to violence," and outright calling those people weak willed/weak minded, sometimes even calling them stupid, and otherwise almost always implying they are stupid. They also make out such people to be child abusers (of course, though this part isn't limited to these people) and see all spankings as traumatizing beatings.
I'm not totally against the idea of "resorting to violence" upon them. What keeps me back is the repercussions, and I'm not only talking about the law.
It's even better when these kinds of things are said by someone who hasn't ever raised any kids (and even better when said by those who claim they will not raise kids), because then their argument becomes hilarious - they have no idea what raising kids is like.
I would like to stress that I am not against the idea of avoiding corporal punishment or anything like that (I can't think of any parents I've met whose hearts do not break when they spank their children), I just hate the kind of people I mention above.
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My ex-girlfriend that I was with from 07-08 had kids of her own and we lived together. Her 2 year old son was VERY VERY unruly and impossible, but all she did was put him in time out and have him face the wall for 5 min, but restarted the timer every time he turned around... It took him, like, 35 minutes to complete cuz he was screaming and crying. He was always testing us to see how far his boundaries were. ALWAYS testing, because he knew he wouldn't get spanked. Well, one day, he was being especially resisting to time out, so she ripped off his diaper and open palmed spanked his ass. Things got a tiny bit better after that as he knew there was this threat of pain. As long as you show your child you love them, then you CAN get away with spanking them. By them knowing there's a threat of that uncomfortable pain, they'll listen better. It's not cruel; it's tough love.
BUT, after that disaster of an experience, I never want kids anyway. I value my freedom too much.
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True!
But, back then it was, boys will be boys...
Today we are so inundated with politically correct liberal nonsense, they are actually considering criminal charges! What the hell is wrong with society today, that parents can't be allowed to do their job and tell the kids, DON'T TORTURE ANIMALS? It's a g-d turtle, for cryin out loud! Does NOT mean it's 'ok' to torture it... but criminal?...
I can't agree with you. It could have easily been a puppy. Killing an animal (hunting, fishing) is entirely different from torturing an animal and laughing about it. The latter shows indifference, or complete lack of empathy, which have been known to be possible indicators of a deeper psycological problem that can develop into something much more serious as the child matures. IMO, criminal charges in the form of community service without jail time (because of their age) and a physiological examination would be the right thing to do here.
Bee
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Apparently you missed the part where I said it's not ok... or are you arguing it IS ok, because it was NOT a puppy? Somehow I don't think so... but if you disagree with me, that is what it sounds like...
Criminal charges but no jail time, because of their age? You want your cake, and eat it too, I suppose. Community service, what does that mean to you? Spank theses kids and send them home.
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Have them work in a kennel and develop an appreciation for other forms of life?
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Community service, what does that mean to you?
Busting my ass and breaking my back unloading several truck loads of large wooden furniture such as china cabinets and desks, removing all the wooden palettes from the trailer, and then placing all of that wooden furniture back into the trailer and taking the palettes out behind the building, then ending the day with stacking asbestos. :)
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It could have easily been a puppy.
Speaking of which...
http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/120502-crosby-puppy-massacre-catches-eye-of-local-law (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/120502-crosby-puppy-massacre-catches-eye-of-local-law)
Yeah, the Houston area is effed up in general, and that's what kids like these will be involved with if there isn't some sort of intervention early on.
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Meant the question for Bett, since she suggested it, but no, 11 and 13 year old kids aren't going to do any community service that resembles work, let alone hard work.
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Where I'm at, yes they do...
...assuming they do community service where I did.
Ok so I volunteered. But I was the only one who did out of, well, several. I was 16 at the time but these kids were mostly younger.
The bad thing is, they don't learn even from there. :)
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Just came across this:
http://youtu.be/WQj1S0lcP64 (http://youtu.be/WQj1S0lcP64)
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WillyP... I may have misread you but to clarify I would seek criminal charges in the form of community service without jail time and most importantly a psychological evaluation for the reasons I explained. Kaiaatsel mentioned service in an animal shelter and that sounds like a great idea. A full summer and a few essays on the subject of animal cruelty would wipe the criminal charge clean....pending results of the evaluation.
Also, relying on parents to correct the problems with the group we are speaking of can't be counted on. They need evaluation by a trained professional to make sure they aren't just another group of kids that will eventually ruin his or her life. How many times have we heard parents or neighbors say "I can't believe he did that. He was always a polite and pleasant kid with good grades"...or "She would never do something like that, it must be a mistake".
No matter how much you believe your child to be an angel, some have a true dual personality.
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WillyP... I may have misread you but to clarify I would seek criminal charges in the form of community service without jail time and most importantly a psychological evaluation for the reasons I explained. Kaiaatsel mentioned service in an animal shelter and that sounds like a great idea. A full summer and a few essays on the subject of animal cruelty would wipe the criminal charge clean....pending results of the evaluation.
Also, relying on parents to correct the problems with the group we are speaking of can't be counted on. They need evaluation by a trained professional to make sure they aren't just another group of kids that will eventually ruin his or her life. How many times have we heard parents or neighbors say "I can't believe he did that. He was always a polite and pleasant kid with good grades"...or "She would never do something like that, it must be a mistake".
No matter how much you believe your child to be an angel, some have a true dual personality.
I agree with everything you said right here. 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself!
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Bett, I can't say what you misread or didn't, but you are missing the point of what I am saying. What you would propose is exactly why kids are going wrong today. Kids believe they are above the authority of their parents and your bleeding heart liberal solutions are the reason why. My kids don't do these kinds of things because they are taught otherwise. I can't guarantee they never will, but I believe they are taught by my wife and I why these things are wrong, and a proper upbringing is the closest thing to a guarantee I can offer society. And I never said my kids were angels, in fact I am saying just the opposite, that things like this should be used by parents as 'teaching moments'. Not that there isn't any moment in a parent-child that isn't a 'teaching moment'.
Your preaching total dependency on nanny state government solutions is breeding a culture of just that... A culture of total dependance on the nanny state government solutions for everything, and parents of these kids often hold no sense of responsibility for raising these kids. I could see community service for the parents, if the parents show no interest in controlling and disciplining these kids.
Is this really what you want for the future generations in this country? If it is, perhaps you would prefer life in communist China.
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Oh, wow I'm getting out of this now.
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Not saying I agree with the nanny state (or such huge, expensive tax expenditures), but I think sending kids who do bad things like that to volunteer at an animal shelter is a good idea. Whether it should be the parent's responsibility or not I'm unsure of. Sure, you raise your kids right. Kids that are raised right don't get involved in this crap at all. It's the kids with bad parents who would fall under this in the first place. At some point it goes beyond simply good parenting or bad and starts being protecting society from kids who weren't raised right, something there seems to be an awful lot of (relatively speaking). I'm not saying I want a nanny state, but it would be nice to have a country where my future safety or my kids' safety is not left up to some half-assed parent who didn't teach their kids right from wrong.
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I'll probably bail soon too if this keeps up, but in the mean time...
I partly agree with Bett, in the sense that she brings up a few good points and possibly could work under the right situations, BUT I'm not convinced it'll work in the situations like the one with the turtle (and on up from there), in fact, I honestly doubt it would. It feels too much like it'd be letting the kids off just a touch too easily, and I really don't think they'd learn anything that'd keep them from turning around and doing it again (if anything, the only thing they could learn is to just not get caught a second time) and this is where I have to side with WillyP. Regardless of the punishment, the parents need to step in and do their part as parents, and see to it that these kids really know not to do this again. Yeah, you can't guarantee that it'll stop them, but neither will community service, so it really boils down to what's more effective, and for that I choose the former over the latter.
I also totally do not buy the writing a few essays as punishment idea. I mean, think about it, really think about it. That's like having mass murderers and terrorists from Al Queda write essays about what how wrong the things they've done is and believing that'll keep them from ever doing it again as if it's some kind of binding document. And even if it was, that would only be effective until one of them decides to break it, and then you can't stop them (that's happened with peace treaties of all sorts again and again throughout the history of...well...any country). It wouldn't stop them from ever doing anything again, and it most certainly wouldn't teach them anything.
And they may be kids, but that doesn't mean that what they did is any less serious. And sometimes serious actions need serious punishments.
(BTW, Bett, I don't say any of this to be mean, I'm just trying to make a few points, and in this instance, being viciously blunt was the best way to do it.)
And WillyP, I won't profess to be any expert on Chinese affairs, but judging from what I've heard taking place in there, I would think they'd actually have the opposite problem at the moment. The Chinese have had a very long history of having very...shall we say...authoritative families? As in, if you don't obey the rules of the family, you're going to be in for it? What you're describing sounds much more like an American/European issue, the two that have had a much bigger history with this sort of thing. At any rate, right or wrong, that was a rather low jab on your part, essentially accusing poor Bett of being Communist, if you don't mind me saying so. This isn't the McCarthy era, after all.
IHateHackers raises a few good points too, mostly the fact that some parents just aren't going to pull through, but as for how to take of the kids in such a situation afterwards is still debatable and depending entirely on the situation. Again, I'm not sure something as simple as community service is going to be enough in this instance. Otherwise I would, admittedly, be all for it.
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What? How dare you accuse me of accusing Bett of being communist? Please, go re-read what I wrote.
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Wow. Okay, guys. In the interest of peace, can we all agree on the following?
1. The primary influence on kids are parents and families. Thus they bear the primary responsibility in teaching their kids ethical values and behavior.
2. With that said, a good family does not always guarantee good kids, and many children don't even have caring families. Thus the education, family services, and justice systems should also be involved when needed.
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We could debate on which parenting or punishment approach would work (personally, I think it depends almost entirely on the kids), but in the end the point is that someone needs to intervene in their lives.
Agreed?
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@WillyP... For the record, everything following the first paragraph in my last post was a general comment on the OP and not directed at you. My apologies if you thought otherwise but overall I'm not having any second thoughts about an evaluation for these kids. I've visited China for a week too. :)
@Ihatehackers... I agree with you but there are cases where good parents who have seemingly good children with good grades, who attend church every Sunday and always do things as a family, end up devastated as they sit in a courtroom listening to their teenager being sentenced. They got fooled and never saw it coming.
@Scyphi... You're not being mean at all. You raise some good points and I agree the essays would probably not work. Read below.
@Foil... I agree that "someone needs to intervene in their lives" and that parents should be the first in line to do this but not in this case for the reasons I already covered. Since they committed a felony it already exceeded normal mischief and requires professional evaluation. Just because someone is a parent doesn't automatically make that parent a mental development expert.
"I can't believe it was him. The whole family is nice". How many times have you heard that from next door neighbors shown on TV. Not all bad kids come from bad families.
@Alieo.... Thank you.
@Kaiaatsel... Hold that door open for me... :)
Bee
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I'm fully convinced good kids with good grades who go to church every Sunday and almost always behave and be good and whatnot can snap and do something they may or will regret for the rest of their life.
I would know because there are several cases where I almost wound up being one of them :)
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No apologies needed Bett, I appreciate your sharing your opinion.
@ Foil, no need to agree, we are all just talking. We don't have to agree to be friends. If we all agreed on everything it would get pretty boring here, agreed? :o
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Well, glad to see that all worked out rather nicely. :)
Now for me to do some working out of my own...
@WillyP: I knew from the beginning you weren't actually accusing anyone of being communist, but that's what it came off as to me, so I was trying to point out that one could take it as that (I was especially worried how Bett was going to take it, but clearly I was overreacting there). In retrospect, though, I phrased all of that terribly and made it worse, and clearly offended you a heck of a lot more than I had intended, so I humbly apologize for that. In fact, let's just forget I even said that at all. Complete mistake for me to have even gone there. :)
I'm fully convinced good kids with good grades who go to church every Sunday and almost always behave and be good and whatnot can snap and do something they may or will regret for the rest of their life.
Ditto this. Just a sad and simple truth, and there really isn't anything anyone can do to prevent it sometimes.
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@ Foil, no need to agree, we are all just talking. We don't have to agree to be friends. If we all agreed on everything it would get pretty boring here, agreed? :o
I wasn't asking for agreement on everything. I was just noticing that the disagreement seemed to be on the peripheral issues (the specifics of an ideal punishment, whether it should be handled by parents or the justice system, etc.), and thought there might be some consensus on the core issues.
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Okay, I've watched this silently for too long. Here I go...
I would seek criminal charges in the form of community service without jail time and most importantly a psychological evaluation for the reasons I explained. Kaiaatsel mentioned service in an animal shelter and that sounds like a great idea. A full summer and a few essays on the subject of animal cruelty would wipe the criminal charge clean....pending results of the evaluation.
Also, relying on parents to correct the problems with the group we are speaking of can't be counted on. They need evaluation by a trained professional to make sure they aren't just another group of kids that will eventually ruin his or her life. How many times have we heard parents or neighbors say "I can't believe he did that. He was always a polite and pleasant kid with good grades"...or "She would never do something like that, it must be a mistake".
No matter how much you believe your child to be an angel, some have a true dual personality.
Today we are so inundated with politically correct liberal nonsense, they are actually considering criminal charges! What the hell is wrong with society today, that parents can't be allowed to do their job and tell the kids, DON'T TORTURE ANIMALS?
Both of you are right.
WillyP, nowadays, parents aren't allowed to lay a hand on their kids. Parents' powers have been taken away by the government and the children know this. I truly believe that "today we are so inundated with politically correct liberal nonsense." I do support charges in this case because in the state of Texas, animal cruelty is a state jail felony. The reason being is because Texas is a HUGE hunting state. Hell, they even allow hunting for sport! But this was a downright blasphemous act by a group of heartless individuals.
I am all for spanking children, but BECAUSE we have all these G-D mandates and restrictions on HOW we can parent our children, I do agree that they should volunteer at an animal shelter so that they can gain respect for creatures smaller than themselves, but I'm not for government funds to be forced on the situation. HOWEVER, because parents nowadays don't give a flying f*** anymore, the government has taken over what parents should and shouldn't do. The vast majority of children today are a result of unwanted pro-life accidents, and the parents don't step up and do their jobs. I know, personally, that I don't want kids because it is absolute HELL raising them in this society today. Screw it! Not for me!
@WillyP... For the record, everything following the first paragraph in my last post was a general comment on the OP and not directed at you. My apologies if you thought otherwise but overall I'm not having any second thoughts about an evaluation for these kids. I've visited China for a week too. :)
@Bettina I see no need for you to apologize for what you said. You made your opinion and he made his. But WillyP saying you have "bleeding heart liberal solutions" to me is a total disregard of respect for your opinions. C'mon, WillyP! I know you strongly feel opinionated about nanny state governments, and I do partially agree with you, but Bettina's a really sweet and considerate person to have around on this forum and I don't think she deserves to have someone say that to her. You're one of the forum administrators for Christ's sake! Have some class, man. I think you owe her an apology.
I really envy your low post count, Bettina. I hope this doesn't deter you from contributing. If I'm sorry for anything it's for starting this damn thread.
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IHateHackers raises a few good points too, mostly the fact that some parents just aren't going to pull through, but as for how to take of the kids in such a situation afterwards is still debatable and depending entirely on the situation. Again, I'm not sure something as simple as community service is going to be enough in this instance. Otherwise I would, admittedly, be all for it.
Well, if there are huge abandonment issues, then yeah, it's not enough. But if the children are otherwise doing fine aside from questionable morals and lack of appreciation for life, it's a good solution. Not only will it teach them the value of life, but it will also teach them the value of hard work which prepare them for the rest of their lives when they move out as soon as they scrape together 500$.
Also, I don't foresee this thread ending well...
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An apology for calling a solution a 'bleeding heart liberal solution'? No. I don't apologize for being conservative, or having conservative solution, or libertarian leanings either. Don't get hung up on labels, they are just useful metaphors, would it be better if I said far left, or progressive liberal? I don't believe I have insulted anybody, and being sweet and nice has nothing to do with this topic.
And I already said, no need for Bett to apologize. I see nothing wrong with expressing opinions, as long as we aren't flinging insults, it's all good.
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You could respect other peoples' political views. You don't need to apologize for your own opinions in order to recognize that other people's opinions, when it comes to politics, are equally right.
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How have I disrespected anyone's views? So typical of the liberal crowd, any disagreement is intolerable, except your own. There's nothing wrong with having a civil discourse. Don't be offended just because someone criticizes your views.
I respect your right to disagree and your right to express that disagreement, please respect mine. I certainly don't apologize for my views in order to recognize when someone else is right. But I also don't think that just because someone's opinion is different than mine they are automatically right.
In fact if someone expresses an opinion different that mine, logic follows that either I change my opinion, or I think they are wrong. Follow?
In other words, I respect the person, I respect their right to a different opinion, and to express their opinion, as I have done, but I am under no obligation to consider their opinion as right, or to respect the opinion itself.
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How have I disrespected anyone's views? So typical of the liberal crowd, any disagreement is intolerable, except your own. There's nothing wrong with having a civil discourse. Don't be offended just because someone criticizes your views.
This is actually what we're getting at, WillyP, the fact that if we even so much hint we disagree with you, you accuse us of all being "liberal" and the such. Which can, and has, been taken as an insult. Not a good thing, especially if the other people don't actually consider themselves liberal (whether or not you think they actually are is beside the point).
You claim to be tolerant of views opposing your own, but you haven't done much to show for it. Now I wholly respect your political view WillyP, and in this case, am actually more inclined to side with you (not to say others haven't brought up good points that I favor as well, because you all have) and don't really want to do much of anything to oppose you on this, but just because you don't agree with our views doesn't entitle you to this..."you're all wrong and I'm right" vibe we get from comments such as the one quoted above (intentional or not).
I don't expect you to apologize for anything, nor do I expect you to retract any of your views either, much less not defend them. You're welcome to do all of that. Just...try and be a little more courteous about it.
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Please don't blow up in my face, please don't blow up in my face, please don't blow up in my face, oh please, oh please, oh PLEASE don't blow up in my face...
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Is being accused of being a liberal a bad thing? If you believe in liberalism, it should be a compliment, no? I have never... NEVER criticized anyone for disagreeing with me. I criticize opinions if they are, in my opinion, different then mine, because, obviously, I consider them wrong until shown otherwise.
Don't be so fragile in support of your own opinion, that you take my opinion of your opinions as such a crushing blow that you feel offended. Stand up for what you feel is right, and if you feel I am wrong, please say so, but do please explain why I am wrong.
Calling someones opinions liberal is only an insult if you perceive it to be... and if it is an insult, doesn't that mean liberalism is wrong? If you called my opinions conservative, I would take that as a good thing.
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...So typical of the liberal crowd, any disagreement is intolerable, except your own.
That's an example of disrespecting someone else's views.
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Okay, things are getting personal in here.
If you guys want to discuss the finer points of political views, that's fine. But the personal assumptions/accusations/suppositions need to stop.
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Alieo....
There are three forums that I monitor and participate in if time permits and the subject is interesting. Those are planetdescent.net, politicalforum.com, and debatepolitics.com where I'm registered as Bettina or Bee. The post counts are low there too because time isn't really on my side like it used to be a few years ago. However, I'm much more active in a nursing forum using my middle name that I want to keep private. I use that forum to learn different techniques from other nurses, ask questions, and to help my mental state too.
Other than lack of time, my post count at PD is low because I'm not a gaming person with the exception being D3 online multiplayer which I really enjoy playing. Since PD doesn't allow threads that are political or religious in nature there aren't many topics here that really interest me until your thread came along. I found it a welcome addition to the usual fare because it dealt with human nature, children, and empathy which are tops on my lists of interests. So, I thank you for this thread and I hope you continue those contributions.
WillyP....
You're somewhat spirited and no apologies are requested or needed from me. I agree with you that it's all good and since you seem to be taking hits from some of the members today, I feel an emerging sense of empathy to comfort you.... A bleeding heart liberal thing.....which I am. :)
Bee
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*SIGH* Look, I understand we all have each other's opinions here. I was simply standing up for something that I personally thought was out of bounds. It took me awhile to interfere because I was debating whether or not I should get too deeply tangled in it, but since I'm in this deep, might as well clear the air.
If I see someone saying something that I think is out of bounds, I'll say something, and I did. Bettina is obviously tough as nails when it comes to political debates and wasn't offended in the slightest. Which brings me to my next point...
How have I disrespected anyone's views? So typical of the liberal crowd, any disagreement is intolerable, except your own. There's nothing wrong with having a civil discourse. Don't be offended just because someone criticizes your views.
This is actually what we're getting at, WillyP, the fact that if we even so much hint we disagree with you, you accuse us of all being "liberal" and the such. Which can, and has, been taken as an insult. Not a good thing, especially if the other people don't actually consider themselves liberal (whether or not you think they actually are is beside the point).
Scyphi, I have new respect for that third ball you just grew. You hit it right on the money. I sure as HELL am not liberal, but I don't believe anything that bellows from the mouths of Faux News reporters or their talk radio affiliates. For the record, I look at both sides. I'm middle of the road, and I am SO voting for Ron Paul. I am SICK and TIRED of the LIBERALS vs CONSERVATIVES bullsh!+. We need to find common ground, and fast, or this country will stay in the HELL it's entered, and there'll be no turning back!
With that being said, when it comes to political arguments, I am NOT afraid to voice my opinion! I agree with Bettina's suggestions on the matter AND I agree with WillyP's views on the matter, minus his assumptions of other people's political beliefs. I do think the kids should work in an animal shelter and write essays about their experiences when they're done BASED ON a court ruling to do so, because some parents nowadays are inept at teaching their kids anything, but any expenses should come out if THEIR OWN POCKET. It's not the government's place to pay for something like this. They're children. It would be a different story if they were in their late teens or if they were legal adults.
That's all I'm going to say on this matter. I'm done.
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Generally speaking, WillyP, calling somebody else something before they claim to be so themselves can be taken as an insult, especially in the tone in which you use it. You make it clear you don't like liberals, in the same post as calling people liberals and making generalized assumptions of liberals.
I think You're being a Typical conservative, so deep-rooted in your old-fashioned political BS to really see anything.
You don't see how that's rude?
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Ok, now point out where I said anything even close to that.
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How have I disrespected anyone's views? So typical of the liberal crowd, any disagreement is intolerable, except your own.
That's pretty much the same thing from where I'm sitting. I crossed out the beginning because it comes across a lot ruder when you do that (which you did).
Better question: Why do we have to be OMG LIBERAL and OMG CONSERVATIVE? Why can't we just be people with a wide spectrum of views on how to solve problems? That's the first problem that America needs to solve before we can go anywhere, and I blame the 2-party system.
ALSO: Topic split por favor?
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I don't see how these are similar, mine was a response to specific thing, and in a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black, my point is proven true.
Under a similar context I would not be offended by your statement. However, note the difference, mine is critical of an attitude, yours is just an attempt at being intentionally insulting. Mine was not directed at an individual, yours was personal.
And you don't have to be "OMG LIBERAL and OMG CONSERVATIVE", or either one, for that matter. It's your choice. I choose my views based on the evidence I have at hand. Many of my opinions run counter to the "Typical conservative, ... old-fashioned political BS". So you see, we CAN be "people with a wide spectrum of views on how to solve problems". Or at least I can.
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Hmm...me thinks we're caught in a circular argument now that'll only end until someone budges on their views (honestly I don't care if anyone does or not)...
Me, I'm grabbing a parachute and bailing from this burning thread. Anybody care to join me?
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For a moment I thought the attempts at deference and diplomacy might have saved the thread, but I think egos are now driving it off the cliff.
I think I'll join you in the parachute exit, Scy. <waves>
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I'm not even bothering with the parachute. It's gotta be only a few meters down from here. :P
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I don't see how these are similar, mine was a response to specific thing, and in a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black, my point is proven true.
Under a similar context I would not be offended by your statement. However, note the difference, mine is critical of an attitude, yours is just an attempt at being intentionally insulting. Mine was not directed at an individual, yours was personal.
And you don't have to be "OMG LIBERAL and OMG CONSERVATIVE", or either one, for that matter. It's your choice. I choose my views based on the evidence I have at hand. Many of my opinions run counter to the "Typical conservative, ... old-fashioned political BS". So you see, we CAN be "people with a wide spectrum of views on how to solve problems". Or at least I can.
And you choose what other people are based on evidence at hand. Which is the problem I have with what you're doing here. I'm not a liberal or conservative, so you're calling me a pot and I'm calling you black.
Surely, no conservative has ever overreacted to anything, only liberals do something so silly.
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Just drop it. There's no way either of you can convince the other to be civil when you're both acting like this. And I mean that for everyone who has gotten involved in this argument, including me. Each of us has a ton of problems with what many other people in this thread are saying. Do you know what I say? I say lock the thread. And I should have said that sooner.
I doubt any of us are career politicians and we don't need to destroy our "buddyships" with other people on this board like they do in Question Period.
And no mod or admin is going to go trying to get the last word by making the last post right before they lock the thread -- unless they really are admitting that they're being rude. Because that would be undeniably rude. And, come to think of it, cowardly.
So this post will be the last post in this thread. And that is an order. I don't care who carries it out.
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/me readies the lock keys.
One, just one more post that continues the argument and I'll slam the lock on this thread.
There was a request to split the thread a few posts back but even the argument hashes the original topic ... Would be very difficult to split without destroying the original topic. Either the argument ends now or the thread will be locked.
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(let's just start fresh :) )
I saw a TV show where this guy is seeing how the kids act, and I think he said something along the lines of the parents that aren't doing the job of raising the kids well.
Kids look up to the parents. They're the role models. They learn from them. A bad parent will most likely raise a bad kid. Not true 100% I know, but being surrounded by loved ones who get along, tend to do better later in life.
I have a GREAT family, and we all basically get along and are happy.